Sue Anstiss MBE, women's sport campaigner, podcast host, author, founder of Fearless Women

Ep 3. Sue Anstiss is not one of those people who spent 2020 sitting around making sourdough and eating banana bread (though I'm guessing she'd approve of leaping around doing PE with Joe). Instead, she's been busy working towards a world where women's sports are treated equally and girls and women throw themselves into exercise and sport with enthusiasm.
In this third episode of the podcast, Girl on the River chats to Sue (who has an MBE for services to women's sport) about:

• her early influences and sporting role models, and how she finally achieved a GB vest in her 40s
• open water swimming (in all seasons) and how it's good for the soul
• Sue's foray into indoor rowing
• Her gradual realisation that there were inequalities between men and women in sport, especially in team sports
• How the way we treat girls in society generally will affect how they feel about sport
• The reasons why women's team sports have been underfunded and what can be done to improve this
• Women in coaching
• The work of the Women's Sport Trust and the Unlocked programme
• The importance of racial equality in promoting women's sport
• Welfare and safeguarding in sport and funding criteria
• Fearless Women, Sue's podcast, The Game Changers and her forthcoming book, Game On - the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport

You can buy Eat, Sweat, Play by Anna Kessel here (I'm going to be reading it myself!)
You can find details of the Women's Sport Trust here.
Sue's award winning podcast is The Game Changers.
Her organisation is Fearless Women.
Her forthcoming book is Game On - the Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport - you can preorder it or make a pledge towards it.

With thanks to Aaron Jackson of Broken Oars Podcast for the beautiful music (and by the way, check out his podcast - it's excellent).

Transcript

Patricia Carswell: 0:01

This is Girl on the River, the Podcast. Whole crew, come forward to row. Hello and welcome back to Girl on the River for Episode Three. Once again, a massive thanks to everyone who listened to the first two episodes, and for all your lovely comments - I appreciate every single one. If you're enjoying the podcast and you listen to Apple, I have a big favour to ask. I wonder if you would consider writing a review on Apple Podcasts. This prompts the Apple bots to notice the podcast which means that more people are likely to find it, and it would be just amazing if you could spread the love. You go to Ratings and Reviews on Apple Podcasts and you can give it a star rating if you feel like it, and then tap on Write a Review and say something lovely about it. You can also let me know your thoughts about the podcast on social media @girlontheriver. Or you can email me anytime at girlontheriverpodcast@gmail.com. So that's enough from me. Let's get on with the show. My guest today is someone who has devoted her career to promoting women's sport and making sure that girls have great sporting role models. In 2018, she was deservedly awarded an MBE for services to women's sport. Now, the reason why I'm so interested to talk to her is that as many of you will know, rowing has historically been an incredibly male-dominated sport. For generations, rowing was considered too strenuous for our delicate bodies and for our reproductive systems. So women were only admitted to Olympic rowing in 1976 and even then they were only racing over 1000 metres instead of 2000 as the men were, and it was only extended to 2K in 1988. In 2012, there were only six women's rowing events as opposed to eight for the men, and the Women's Boat Race that was only allowed to be held on the Tideway in 2015. And even now, things are improving, but fewer women are progressing in the performance pathway in British rowing, despite there being an almost equal number of boys and girls and men and women between J14 and under23. So there's still a lot of work to be done. So I think it's a really important conversation to be having. So anyway, back to my guest. For more than 30 years, she ran a sports and fitness PR agency. She was a founding trustee of the Women's Sport Trust charity, and she has held important positions in a number of local and national sporting boards. She is the host of the brilliant award winning podcast, The Game Changers - if you haven't listened to it, you must - and in 2020 founded Fearless Women, which drives positive change for women's sport. She's also got a book coming out, and we will be talking about that later. She is Sue Anstiss MBE and I am delighted to have her on the show. So welcome to the podcast.

Sue Anstiss: 3:06

Thanks. Well, thank you so much. What a wonderful introduction. Thank you, I was learning stuff about rowing there as well. I didn't realise that in terms of the dates you shared. I knew there was inequality but it was fascinating to hear that too. Y

Patricia Carswell: 3:18

Yeah, I didn't know that until I started looking into it about the Olympics. And I was really quite taken aback. So I am delighted that they're people like you, devoting them themselves to promoting women's sport. And it's nice to have you in the spotlight as well, because you have spent your career enabling other people and promoting other people. But it's very rare that you actually step into the limelight. So actually, it's quite hard to find very much out about you. Google doesn't reveal very much. So I wondered about your own early experiences of sports in your family and in school. Were they positive?

Sue Anstiss: 4:00

Actually, I think it's a good question. It's funny, I research my guests. And Google's a fantastic fount of information so I can imagine... it always helps that they've written an autobiography or they've appeared on lots of things. So yes, it must be tricky, tricky for me. It was quite a sporty family. My dad was a PT instructor, actually, in the Metropolitan Police. So he was very physically active, very fit. And I've got three older brothers, I've got a twin brother, and then two other brothers. So I think we were a quite a sporty family, my mum played tennis, so it was always quite a natural part of our life, I think, to be playing and involved in sport and I don't ever remember, looking back, having any less opportunity than my brothers did. So I think we did the same stuff. My twin brother and I learned to swim together. I went to the athletics club with my little brother. So yeah, I think it was it was quite normalised in terms of sport and physical activity, which probably wasn't average for other girls of my age. But I think in our family, television always had sport on all the time. So yeah, it was very natural part of our lives.

Patricia Carswell: 4:57

So what were your sports? What did you enjoy?

Sue Anstiss: 5:00

I swam, I think my first thing was swam, so I swam, not at a very high level but at county level of swimming and then I moved across to athletics, so track and field, so 800 originally and then four hurdles, and then by the time I got to university - I played netball and did all the stuff at school like you would do - And then by the time I got to university... I actually went to Loughborough and I played volleyball, so I started volleyball at Loughborough, which I loved, and it was something different to try. And then I...

Patricia Carswell: 5:26

Is that why you chose Loughborough, because it's quite a sort of sporty university, isn't it?

Sue Anstiss: 5:29

Yes, I actually, I snuck in the back door almost, to Loughborough actually. So I initially went to read English so I applied to Loughborough and I didn't apply for PE there because I felt I was a bit of a jack of all trades. I'd done lots of stuff to a fairly high level, but I'd never represented the country, I'd don't have anything really high and I was very conscious of the rumours of Loughborough being full of people that had got GB honours, etc. So I applied for English and I was offered an unconditional offer at the t me for English. And then I had a year out I worked at Harrods f r a year in retail. And while I as there I reapplied as act And did you progress? Did you sort of get beyond university ally I'd really love to do PE wi h English too. And so they just said that's fine, c me and do PE and English. So I think it was... I think if I' just applied to do PE I might n t have got in there. But at the time it was quite int midating. I think when I arrive there and there were so man people that had played sport to such a high level, which for me was why then I almost took a different path and tried some hing I hadn't played before. So it was a bit level or...? I played for English Universities, I think I spent a lot of time on the bench but I loved it I was never going to be amazingat volleyball but I thoroughly enjoyed it and actually when I look now back now at the friends that I've made they're the people that I see regularly still from university days are the Loughborough girls ... the volleyball team. So I think those friendships etc, that were created at that time, those are the consistent people that have remained in my life, people that I played volleyball with, so yeah. But I don't really think... that's funny isn't it, I don't really think of myself as a volleyball player, I would think of myself, I guess... I haven't played then much since University. So then I've gone back to swimming and running and cycling and all those things too.

Patricia Carswell: 7:12

So is that what you do now? Are you sort of... so, basically a triathlete, right there?

Sue Anstiss: 7:17

I did... I came very late to triathlon. So in my 40s - I was 46, I think, when I did my first triathlon, and I realised that I had swum and I had run, and if I'd have put cycling into that, too, I could have done some triathlon. So, no, I was very late to it but obviously trathlon has that fabulous age group opportunity. So I managed to qualify for London as an age group athlete. Yes, a bit later. My older brother Tim was a decathlete and a pole vaulter. So he had an international vest, he'd competed internationally at those sports. So we kind of laugh, it took me to get to be 46 to get a GB vest.

Patricia Carswell: 7:49

Hey, it's never too late!

Sue Anstiss: 7:52

It was lovely to get that. So yes, I did a couple of World Championships and a couple of Europeans. And now I'm just doing lots of open water swimming. So I love swimming. I swam through the last two winters which has been amazing. And I guess seing sport from a different side really, just enjoying being with others that whole... I say it's good for the soul. And as I'm sure it's very similar, in that rowing of being out on the water, I just love that being at one with nature. And I no longer wear my Garmin or my Polar, I just swim to be, so I'm much less competitive than I was even in my, in the 40s when the triathlon bug took over. So, I've done a bit of indoor rowing. I competed in BRIC [the British Rowing Indoor Championships] a couple of years

Patricia Carswell: 8:32

Oh did you? That's hard core! ago.

Sue Anstiss: 8:35

So I have little forays into things that I think I'll enjoy. But at the moment I think it's primarily the open water swimming I'm loving at the moment.

Patricia Carswell: 8:43

And that's becoming a big thing all of a sudden, isn't it?

Sue Anstiss: 8:46

Yeah, absolutely. I think its' so good for mental health and it just I feel like it's become quite fashionable and I think probably lockdown has made it so as well. It's a lovely thing to be able to do. I think research in the the last few weeks again coming out around help with dementia etc in terms of the cold I think drove more people down to Bray lake that weekend. But it's lovely. It's probably three years ago I started. I had already done more swimming obviously to do triathlon, but just swimming without a wetsuit, without gloves and just being in the water and then being through the winter in the cold.

Patricia Carswell: 9:15

Do you not wear a wetsuit even in the

Sue Anstiss: 9:18

Nothing at all, no. Well, a costume, obviously! And winter? actually last season,last winter I swam without boots or a hat, like a neoprene hat, or without gloves. So just in a costume. And it is the most exhilarating thing... when you come out I always feel it's a bit a bit like a hangover in reverse. So it's that unpleasantness at first but then it's an amazing feeling of being in there and then the exhilaration after when you get that after drop in there, and then htat lovely feeling, you know, that virtuous feeling for the rest of the day when you know that you've done something wonderful. And it's so sociable, i think for me it's that sociable, being with others and, and sharing that experience and I've loved... Absolutely, I think I've become a bit of a passionate fan for it as well, telling everyone about it and trying to get them in into it, too. It's been lovely. Yeah.

Patricia Carswell: 10:05

So one of the things that you're very keen on is making sure that girls growing up have sporting role models. Who were your kind of sporting heroes or heroines, as you grew up?

Sue Anstiss: 10:18

Yeah, I think, I guess my PE teachers, I think... it's not, I guess, such a romantic... some of those bigger names. So definitely those around the Olympic Games I would think of the Olga Korbuts or even, you know that through athletics, and Sally Gunnell, and seeing people taking part on the biggest events, etc. But I think day to day, probably Miss Bamber at school, Mrs. Gillette, but the PE teachers at school I think that were... just made it very appealing and madeit accessible. And I probably was that sporty girl that wanted to take part in everything as well. So I think I was inspired by them. And I guess it was, it was those sort of major sports events of seeing... so probably primarily around the Olympics and Wimbledon, etc. But they weren't... I think we realise now there weren't as many as, as there were on the men's side, really? And you've got three daughters, is that right? Yes. Yeah.

Patricia Carswell: 11:13

And they had good experiences of sports at school as well?

Sue Anstiss: 11:17

Yeah, they have actually, they've... it's interesting because we don't... I often think this... they've kind of gone into sport because actually, we didn't really encourage them into dance and music and because it probably isn't our passions as parents, so I do think you you can't force them to, but you can open the doors to things. We're always much happier to stand on a pitchside or courtside to be watching sports. So yeah, they have all, they've all played. What's interesting, I think, years ago people talk about that whole, would you push for your children to become the next Olympians and to compete, but actually, they've all come to the point where they just love playing, but they don't want to get on that pathway... they've had the opportunities to, to be in academies and so on. And they haven't... they've chosen almost not to do that. But they want to compete, loving their sport and enjoying it through life and university. And that's a fantastic thing. And I'm kind of really grateful that they recognise what sport can give them, that they don't have to be on a pathway to train every night and potentially sacrifice other things too. So yeah, but I'm really happy that they all love their sport still and still play netball and rugby, and athletics, all kinds of things.

Patricia Carswell: 12:23

So your experience of sport early on in life was a positive one. At what point did you become aware that there was a difference between men and women in sport?

Sue Anstiss: 12:35

I think it took me way too long, a very long time! And I do think we're going to come on to talk about, I guess, the work that I've done in this space, I didn't think... I'm sure I must have always been slightly aware of it. But perhaps because I did swimming and I did athletics, I just thought that we're quite equa,l and volleyball even you know, we had a fantastic mixed club. So I don't think I saw as much of where there wasn't an opportunity for me to do the things that I wanted to do. As I look back, I think why did I not see it? But I, you know, and even in my job roles, I worked for Gatorade, the American sports drink, when I left University - I worked for Cadbury's first and then for Gatorade. And even looking back at the time, I didn't see where they sponsored lots of teams and sports in the UK and all the major football teams, but I didn't really notice at the time that they weren't really sponsoring much by way of women's sport. They did a little bit in terms of tennis. But at the time I think, I can't believe looking back it didn't occur to me that it was just so much money being pumped into male sport. I'm not calling them out. I guess it's more that I just didn't really notice it. I wasn't really aware of it. I think it's probably in the last 10 to 15 years, that it became more apparent to me through the work that I was doing, whether that was netball or hockey or you know, within sports and national governing bodies. So I guess because I got more involved in team sport, that's where we've seen there is the hugest, the biggest imbalance. And I think because, in Olympic sports and to a certain extent, rowing and other sports, we have - although you pointed out there wasn't equality - we have seen men and women competing side by side. So I think it's probably as I've become more involved in the team sport side it's become more apparent to me. And then, quite a key moment for me around 2012, working and then meeting the Women's Sport Trust, who were just establishing themselves as a charity. I think suddenly to talk to all these like minded men and women who felt the same as me, and was pointing out actually that there is this massive disparity in terms of funding and exposure and coverage and role models. And I think that probably was an awakening around that mid 2000s, 2010, etc., around that time.

Patricia Carswell: 14:40

Do you think it's as much an issue in kind of grassroots level as as it is in elite sport because, yeah, I'm thinking of, you know, when you go to a new gym and you do your induction, they always kind of assume that you're there to lose weight and they'll direct you to the nice safe machines and they'll keep you out of the scary free weights area. Do you think it's? Do you think it's as much of an issue across the board? Or is it more in sort of high performance sport that it's

Sue Anstiss: 15:08

I think it's everywhere. I think it's an issue? societal, isn't it - that sort of patriarchal ... whatever we've inherited. So I do think you talk grassroots... I was thinking more of younger girls coming into sport. But absolutely within the fitness.... I worked in the fitness sector for 15, 20 years, you know, right from the point of who is it that runs those gyms, who are the CEOs of a large gym chain, they were all men. So there may have been women teaching exercise to music and working within the sector, but there weren't women in those senior roles, establishing the gyms and setting up those businesses. And absolutely in terms of coming into a gym and a woman feeling comfortable in the free weights area or to take on things, it was very much a... women were... I guess felt to be start to be... there would be group exercise, and there will be areas that would appeal to women and areas that would appeal to men. And that's fantastic that that is changing, and that celebration of women, as strong beings, you know, about being strong, not skinny. So I do think we're beginning to see change there, where women feel they can go in and own and be wherever they want to in the gym. But definitely, there is an element of that. And similarly, as you've mentioned, at grass roots, I think just that opportunity to access and train and are there enough coaches and you know, it's systemic across the whole of sport. So, you know, I guess we work a lot with the Women's Sport Trust at the top end. But actually, that filters right down to grassroots. And obviously, all the issues we know around girls and dropping out of sport at 13 or 14 because they don't want to be sweaty, they want to keep the hair looking nice and all the things that go with being involved in sport as a young woman.

Patricia Carswell: 16:43

Yeah, I did some interviews about that. A few years ago, I was writing an article about sports in school and why girls drop out. And that was really interesting. I mean, in my own case, at school, it was partly that I had red hair. And when I did exercise, my face went pink and it clashed with my hair. And it was as simple as that, it just wasn't a good look. But yeah, it was interesting. I remember talking to one PE teacher, and she said, You know, sometimes sometimes it's as simple as the kit we're asking them to wear. You know, if you give them a tracksuit that they feel comfortable in and you're not making them exercise in their pants, like we had to in the 70s, that really makes a difference- stuff that they don't mind being seen around school in and that they're comfortable, if they don't get to shower after PE, which some of them, a lot of them, don't, stuff that they're comfortable wearing a bit sweaty in the classroom and that kind of thing, just making it a more positive and less self conscious experience.

Sue Anstiss: 17:38

It's really interesting. I don't know if you've read Anna Kessel's book, Eat, Sweat, Play.

Patricia Carswell: 17:42

No, I haven't.

Sue Anstiss: 17:42

It's absolutely brilliant, OK, one of my favourite all time books, just a fantastic book. But in it, she talks - and it's one of those things, and I read it and it's so resonated with what I feel. So we talk a lot about the whole changing the school environment, we need hair dryers in the changing rooms and add a bit of sparkle to it. And ultimately, it's about changing society and making it okay for girls to come back to the classroom with sweaty hair and to have run around outside. So we're not going to change that in a flash. But it is more about making sport and physical activity become acceptable. And when did it stop being okay for girls to run on hills and climb trees and get dirty and enjoy it but it's still okay for boys at that whole point. And that's what changes, is how women appear and how they want to appear. Because that attitude dictates how women... so whether it's that they need somewhere to reapply their makeup, well why, you know, why is that a necessity where it isn't for boys. So I guess there is some bigger, I'm getting a bit profound here, aren't I, some bigger societal things, though, that you would like to confront that would make actually just enjoying sport and being hot and sweaty and competitive and powerful and all those things, just to normalise those, that's, you know, what, there's no reason that young women shouldn't be doing that in the way that men are.

Patricia Carswell: 18:50

But that's actually something that we can we can contribute towards, you know, instead of just always looking at the governing bodies and making it their responsibility, which it is, but as well it's our responsibility as as parents and aunts and friends and godparents, and all that kind of thing. You know, anytime we're influencing young girls, how we talk to them, what we give them to wear and encourage them to play with and all that kind of thing that really is on us as well, isn't it?

Sue Anstiss: 19:19

Yeah, indeed. Indeed. And yeah, I think from a schools point of view you talk... I remember those scratchy Aertex shirts for those of a certain age and those pleated skirts, but actually when my daughter has PE, and they can go to school in their joggers, naturally then you know, that's a great day - that's a day that feels more relaxed and chilled. And I know there's lots of talk about shoes in school, so you know, you go into Clark's and the girls' shoes have got little straps across and flowers and the boys'.... my daughters always wanted, you know, the boys' ones that had laces and were tough and they could run and do things with, so it's all those things that are I guess the societal piece that makes it less likely that girls are going to run and play and climb and do all those lovely things that we want to encourage them to do.

Patricia Carswell: 20:00

That's, that's a really interesting thought I hadn't really kind of looked at it that way. So aside from how we treat our daughters and encourage them to be what do you think are the major obstacles for women progressing in sport at the moment?

Sue Anstiss: 20:16

Funding. So often it comes down to money, doesn't it? So I think, I guess, whether we're in COVID, or I think COVID just highlighted a lot of the issues that were, you know, fundamental anyway, because men's sport has had that massive advantage in terms of time - you know, the FA banned women from playing on their pitches in 1921. So actually, there's been like 50 years of women not playing football, and then another 30 years or sothen for it to catch up. But similarly, if we look at cricket, and rugby, all those things, that men's sport had time to establish itself and to become commercially successful, and to attract sponsors and broadcasters. And so those things were in place. So actually from a... the thing that's holding women's sport back is primarily around money, whether that comes from spectators or sponsorship or selling rights, broadcast rights, etc. So we're almost playing catch up. And I think that is... that's the challenge, is people accepting that that's the reason why women's sport - women's team sport - I should keep coming back to mention that isn't just all women's sport, but that's where it is behind, because actually, it hasn't been given the opportunity and invested in to enable it to grow and develop in the way men sport has over the last 100 years or 150 years.

Patricia Carswell: 21:29

And do you think that's why people often regard women's sports as kind of less valuable to watch? Is it just that we haven't been given it to watch? And it's not familiar.

Sue Anstiss: 21:41

Absolutely. And I think that there probably was an element, maybe even 15... 10 or 15 years ago, that the skill level for women's team sport wasn't where it is now. Because they were all amateurs, they were women working full time jobs, and then coming along, training twice a week, and being expected to be to the skill level of a guy, or a young man that's grown up and has been in an academy and has played professionally, you know, all the way through, actually, but now, there are so many sports now have become more professional, there is more time. You know, these are athletes that have been training full times. So it's not just about the skill of play, but their speed and strength and all those things that they can build up if you're training full time and a professional athlete. So I think there's definitely been a very rapid improvement, in terms of both skill set and the quality to watch. But a lot of it I think, is just a kind of cynical male attitudes. If you see some of the posts when someone posts on... I mean, even this week talking about what's going to be on television on BBC, whether it's football or rugby, and that negative vitriol in the comments after, from... so I... so a bit of me... it clearly frustrates me and many others. But how do you change that mindset? well, part of that is about getting it out there, getting it seen, showing it on television, people seeing, and then beginning to see that it is a really amazing product. And not to always compare like with like with the men's game. In some cases, you know, the rules are the same and, you know, the principles of it, but actually the games are quite different for a lot of the team sports it's quite different. But you wouldn't compare... you wouldn't say, actually, I don't like women's gymnastics versus men's or tennis, men versus females or rowing or cycling or so many sports. Actually, we just think of them as a sport we don't think of men's and women's. I think it's a team sport. And because football is obviously such a huge sport. It's been that that's been the mainstay of the conversation because it is the biggest sport and I guess the wealthiest sport, too.

Patricia Carswell: 23:28

It must help that they've, in recent years been more successful as a sort of na... certainly on a national level, the women's football squad have done incredibly well and disproportionately well compared with the men.

Sue Anstiss: 23:42

And as have cricket, the women's cricket team won the World Cup, hockey won an Olympic gold, netball won Commonwealth gold. So it isn't just... you know, the rugby's winning - the women in the Six Nations and hopefully the World Cup next year. So actually, across all those sports, the women's teams have done extraordinarily well. So actually what you want is, and it's often that times are kind of... research shows that as a society when it's a big international event, we all come behind the country, whether they're, you know, men or women we'll support them because we become quite tribal for our nation. So you think that those times you know, 1.9 million people watching the Lionesses last year in the semifinal of the World Cup. Actually, it's not as if people aren't watching football, they will watch it if it's there, and they bought into it. A lot of the reason that we haven't had that coverage is that we're not having the quality of coverage. We haven't got the backstories, the great animation, the captions, the replays the... all that stuff that goes behind isn't just plonking it on television. It's everything that goes behind that... great camera angles - so actually if you look at the Allianz, I'm banging the drum for the Allianz, premier 15s rugby at the moment, there are some amazing games being played but you've got to watch them at the moment on a live stream through the Allianz premier fifteens website or on two or three static cameras and, you know, they're doing as good a job as they can but it would be such different... you then go and tune across to one of the games on BBC or BT Sport, etc. and you see everything that goes into making it a fantastic product to consume. So it's only really the fans, the massive fans of those sports, that are going to... they're not going to bring new people into the sport for as long as the whole product isn't there in terms of the way in which it's displayed.

Patricia Carswell: 25:19

Do you get disillusioned when you look at that? Or do you feel quite hopeful that things are changing and will change?

Sue Anstiss: 25:26

I am really hopeful and positive. What did someone say today? I'm a prisoner of hope I am ever positive.

Patricia Carswell: 25:33

I love that!

Sue Anstiss: 25:34

Someone used it on on my podcast, a fantastic phrase! A prisoner to hope... so you know, I'm very positive. And I think actually just even looking in the last 10 years of how things have moved and shifted so dramatically. You talked then about the, you know, the Boat Race, on the Thames, etc, so I think things... we've seen so many key moments that have changed really in the last decade that... and obviously there's a bump in the road, I think in terms of COVID. But actually, it's got us all talking about it, people have come out and had conversations, we don't want to lose that momentum that has been moving. So yeah, it frustrates me. And I sometimes think it's almost like the elephant in the room that people won't always call it out, and you don't know what's going on behind the scenes in terms of... I'm very fortunate to be a party to some of those conversations. So I get to know what's happening with the broadcasters or the sponsors or those that own the rights. But sometimes you just got to call it out and say this is just not acceptable. And I guess what's happened recently with the young athletes, the footballers, in terms of the academies, the girls academies, not being able to play but the boys' academies still continuing on, actually someone needs to say that, hello, that's just not acceptable. But you know, we're half the population, we're - from a sponsor's perspective, you know, women make a huge amount of purchasing decisions in terms of, in family life. So actually, they should be wanting to engage and reach women, through sport, too. But also, there's a huge commercial opportunity, and many sports are only really growing, because the women's side of the sport is growing. If you look at rugby, that's where the growth is coming from is women and girls coming to the sport. So there is a real fabulous commercial opportunity too. So it's not like a CSR, come and sponsor us please, because we're worthy, there is this amazing opportunity. And some of the brands - the Barclays, the Vitalitys, the SSEs - others that have seen that, you know, obviously had benefit, but we kind of need more to come to that too.

Patricia Carswell: 27:18

I was quite interested listening to Judy Murray on on your podcast talking about women in coaching. And that has, that's another area where there's been a bit of a catch up going on.

Sue Anstiss: 27:29

Hugely so. And actually, some research I've been doing recently in in America around, I won't go into detail about... but title line in terms of equality of funding for girls' education in sports. So [ ] brought loads of women into sport in the States. But in terms of coaching where at the time that it was initiated in the 70s through 80s, there was quite a nice balance of women coaching those senior teams in the NCAA. So that top level of universities, actually that's really shifted now. And it's more men. So it's now 90% men coaching in those senior roles, because they've paid for it. And they've seen the opportunity and it's become more commercial. So actually money coming into women's sport has disproportionately disadvantaged women - there are less of them So I guess I've been researching more, so finding more about the in coaching. coaching areas, absolutely fascinating. I think for a long time, the thought has been we need to fix the women, and we need to make... give them more confidence and get more courses. But actually, it's about fixing the whole system. It's not really - you know, the women are enthusiastic, and they'd like to do more, and they've got great skill sets and they can be great coaches, it's at all those different levels along the way, where they're stopped or not able to get on and progress into those senior roles. So I'm pleased to say there's quite a lot of activity I think going on with UK Sports and Sport England, and individual bodies as well, so World Rugby has recently initiated a project where they're putting a coach in with each of the teams that are competing in the World Cup next year, so a female coach, and not just to turn up for the event, but to be part of the whole training throughout the year to then be... so then at least there'll be 21 amazing female coaches who have been part of that structure. And I think UEFA have done the same for I think it was 21 for '21 for UEFA as female coaches, to... it's 12 for World Rugby and 21 for UEFA. Those kind of initiatives and interventions that just accelerate women so at least get them a little bit, so we've got them at, you know, in the right place to demonstrate that they absolutely can do an amazing job.

Patricia Carswell: 29:25

And what sort of work has the Women's Sport Trust been doing, because I know they've been very active in promoting women's sport.

Sue Anstiss: 29:33

Yes, a lot of the work we do is a little bit behind the scenes. Jo Bostock, who was one of the founders, talks about us being the provocative glue - she's queen of the catchphrases - but bringing people together, so behind the scenes, bringing the decision makers, whether that is the media, the rights holders, the sporting bodies, the sponsors, and so on. So, lots of activity that goes on. We don't really put our head above the parapet too much - we tend to just making sure things are happening beneath, behind the So a lovely campaign that's happened this summer is the scenes. Unlocked campaign where we took 41 athletes, female athletes, and paired them with 41 activators, so people from sport media, business, etc. And then help them to find their voices and there's been some amazing cases that have come out from just talking and bringing these athletes together and giving them some coaching and support to better find their voices and raise their profile. So projects like that. And we're about to start Unlock 2 - I was just on a call this morning about an ambition campaign that we've done, where again, we bought together 54 really key leaders from all areas of sport together to talk about what women's sport needs to move it forward. So we'll be releasing more information around that in the coming month or so. But I guess with a sort of convener they're bringing together, they're getting people to stand outside from perhaps where they sit day to day in their roles and learn from others, too. So yeah, it's been very influential. And it's been a really exciting, and it's a tiny charity. And at the end of the day, we haven't got any full time staff. There's kind of a few people working part time, lots of volunteer trustees rolling their sleeves up and making stuff happen. So yeah, a lot of impact for a small charity.

Patricia Carswell: 31:10

That sounds really exciting. Now, this year, obviously, we've heard a lot in the news about Black Lives Matter. And I wondered how much ethnic diversity is becoming more of a focus in promoting women in sport, because I know a lot of people feel that you can't concentrate on women's issues without also considering race.

Sue Anstiss: 31:32

Absolutely, absolutely. I think there is always a danger, I guess, with all feminism, but it's not intersectional enough. We replicate things that we know in the space that we are. So I definitely think that definitely for us as women within sport and the work that we're doing with the sport it is so important. So I would like to feel that those, you know, within the sector are doing more to make sure that is the case. And I guess it's on the agenda, too. One of the questions I had been asked in the past is almost, are you worried that as we move on to look at other considerations, that women's, that the drive for women's sport, not falls off the radar, but it becomes, it doesn't become as important because there are other inequalities that are also out there. But actually, I think it's about everyone together, and just trying to create a more balanced equal sector as a whole. So absolutely. It's definitely something under consideration. And what's been fabulous with the Unlocked programme is the amazing range of women from all backgrounds and in terms of power sports, Olympic sports, and all kinds of areas coming together. So absolutely, yes, I think it's really key that it's for all women, we're looking for equality for all women.

Patricia Carswell: 32:39

Yeah, it's certainly an issue in rowing. I know the statistics show that BAME rowers are very underrepresented. But I think we're coming late to dealing with it. But I know British Rowing is very keen to address this. And there was a really interesting webinar that I listened to this week, where they had some young black rowers talking about what it's like being the only black person in your rowing club and all the preconceptions that people have, you know, these kind of crazy ideas that black people can't swim and that they're not suited to water sports. And it's getting the message across not just to the membership as a whole, but to young black people that this is a sport that they are welcome in and will be good at as well. And... but I think there's there's a lot of work to be done. And I'm glad the conversation is starting. I hope it just translates into actual change. Because I think the thing that's worried me a bit about this year is that there's been a lot of talk and people, you know, putting a black square on their Instagram, but does it actually translate into, you know, greater numbers in sport and to real changes in attitude?

Sue Anstiss: 33:49

And I do think there's a lot in terms of the pathway. The thing I found is about the pathway to from grassroots through, in terms of that performance pathway. So I remember seeing a photograph after the women have won the Cricket World Cup, they went with the rugby girls to number 10 Downing Street and I saw this picture. And for me, it was like this wake up call. Oh, my goodness, they're all white. And actually, there were quite a lot of them were blonde as well, it was like all these women that looked the same. And so as I've talked to other people around why that is the case, and on the podcast too, so the likes of Rimla and Ebony and so on, it does seem to be it's that pathway that in schools, you might try a sport in schools, it's quite equal in terms of people coming in and experimenting and trying different sports, but as soon as it's, they're on that pathway in terms of performance, and the same for hockey, so Sally Munday said its' exactly the same for hockey, it's certain types, certain schools. It's where the selection comes from, where they're able to get into those clubs, how the clubs are linked to the schools. It feels like that's the pipeline almost. And I know Ebony Rainford-Brent s doing some amazing stuff w th Surrey in terms of the ACE Ac demy to go and find those youn people, as she was, and then ringing them through, but with a sport like cricket it can b a really long way to travel fr m your school to go to countyt aining, it's the transportati n, it's the time, it's the fu ding, it's all those things t at make it exclusive. And I g ess that's why in some sports like netball and football, we'v not seen ...we've seen more equality perhaps in terms of rac, because it is more accessible for everybody. There's, the pa hway is more accessible So I think there is that struc ural... as exactly as you say we can talk about it. But wha are we doing to actuall change the structure and the accessibility to ensure that th se teams don't look like that in 10 years time?

Patricia Carswell: 35:31

Let's talk about safeguarding. I've just watched Athlete A, it took me a while to pluck up the courage to watch it because I knew it was going to be a difficult watch. And it was, And I know that there's been a lot of talk about the safety of, and the welfare of young girls and women in sport. So how worried do you think we need to be? And does it, is it confined to certain sports? Or do you think we need to be alive to this across the sports?

Sue Anstiss: 36:03

I think it's good that we're talking about it so much more now. And not just through Athlete A and the documentary, but whether you look at football, that's happened in Afghanistan and women's football teams, and I guess we're talking women, young women now but men and women in terms of other sports too. So I think we're not I'm less worried than I was, I think it's good that we're talking about it, discussions are taking place, and people are more aware of it. And it's being aired and, and discussed. I think for as long as you've got, you know, that kind of young, very young people, especially on the gymnastics side where you're taking really young individuals, and you're really putting them through their paces in order to attain and get be on the pathway and have success. I think there's always that power dynamic of the coach or whoever's in authority making those decisions. So I think, I'm delighted that UK Sport are looking more at how they provide funding and what they're measuring on in the future, that it's not just all about that gold medal piece, it is very much around the overall wellbeing and the kind of future athlete - athletes as people - I think things are changing. I feel like we're moving in a positive direction. I listened to a webinar today from the Centre for Human Rights, which is a federation set up quite recently to working with Human Rights Watch, and others. And it's just shocking when you hear, you know, all that has gone on in the past or that is now coming to fruition that we're hearing about. As I say, I think the fact that we're now discussing it, that we're putting things in place, that we're openly talking about it - and it's not just about kind of the athletes and coaches but about parents and around those around the sport that may have seen stuff but not called it out in the past because they've you know, worried about their own roles. Are they worried about how it might jeopardise opportunities for people in the future? I think that the fact that you and I are talking about this now, I think the fact that it's become more of a public conversation is a very positive thing.

Patricia Carswell: 37:59

Is that a definite change in UK sport funding that they will be taking athlete welfare into account as well as the medals that they've won in the last round of Olympics?

Sue Anstiss: 38:10

Yes. And in the longer term, I think it's more looking for, again, medal potential in the next 10 years, or you know, next 10 or 12 years, rather than to the next cycle, Olympic cycle or even two. There's just not long enough to make change and see that difference. So yes, and I guess for people that know Sally Munday, comes from a very different... not that Liz didn't do an amazing job, I guess there was Liz and Sue that were there and driving that that felt right at the time for what people wanted and what DCMS wanted, etc. I think now, society's evolved, and different people have come in with Katherine and Sally and so on. So I think probably that, you know, they're responding to what society... they've done a lot of research to see what the public wanted from their leading sports bodies. And it does feel that, absolutely, it's about the whole athlete, the wellbeing of athletes. It worries me that we're just going to see more and more of this and you know, people have started that conversation and more will come forward. But that's not a bad thing. You don't want to not hear it... that you know, I heard someone talking recently, the best thing you could hope for is that an athlete will talk about it, because that gives you an opportunity to address it and have that conversation and look at others that may have been impacted, but not talked about it in the past. So actually, it's a really important thing that we encourage people to talk and share. But in the past, they haven't - where would people go to - who would you complain to? Complain to a coach and then you've go,t you know, or to somebody, saying you got to go back to that coach in the future. There haven't been many avenues for people to talk about that stuff. And I think that's beginning, that is definitely beginning to change.

Patricia Carswell: 39:38

If you were World Queen for the day, if you could sort of wave a magic wand and do one thing for women's sport, what would it be? What's the one change that you think could make a huge difference?

Sue Anstiss: 39:51

For me, it's about, from an elite point of view, I think it starts with visibility and people seeing women's sport so there is... we did talk about that cycle of is it about funding, is it about getting more spectators in, which we'll all do eventually, won't we, more sponsorship in, more access to the grassroots to get the pathway. And for me, it's about visibility. I think if you can't see it, then all the other things don't follow. So if I did have that I would be putting women's sport up front and centre and next to men's sport on a regular basis, you know, in terms of everywhere that we see it, every news bulletin, just to normalise it, to make it be seen as equal to, as good as, what the men are doing. And I think immediately the rest I feel would then follow.

Patricia Carswell: 40:35

Yeah, so when you go into a pub, and there's the big screen up, to be just as likely to see a women's football match as a men's ... that would be...

Sue Anstiss: 40:43

Yeah, that would be absolutely amazing, just normalised in that way.

Patricia Carswell: 40:48

So tell me about Fearless Women. What is it? And what do you do?

Sue Anstiss: 40:52

Sadly, my lovely agency, as you mentioned in the opening, didn't really survive COVID. So we were doing a lot of work at the time with mass events, and conferences, driving people into spectators into events and so on as well, too. So there really wasn't a place for us. And we could see that it was going to take a long time to come back from that. So"pivoted" is the word that everyone's using at the moment, isn't it? So I pivoted! And Fearless Women is really an umbrella agency beneath which sits all the things that I'm involved with in terms of driving increased impact for women's sport. So the podcast that you mentioned, sits within that - so The Game Changers. I'm doing some consultancy for people that are interested in getting more people into grassroot sport, more women and girls, or raising the profile for some of the initiatives that they're doing. And then also the book, which, so I've written a book, and so that's within that too. And then we've just launched the Women's Sport Collective, so a network for women working within the sport sector. So already got 1300 women signed up for that - it's been a bit of a rapid growth - it isn't quite what we thought. We piloted it during the summer but that's been amazing. So a fabulous collective for, for those working in all different areas of sport. So those different initiatives, I guess, sit within Fearless Women's so I feel Fearless Women is almost that, the umbrella agency... I don't really think it's going to become a communications agency for women's sport. But as I say a lot that we're doing within it sits beneath that umbrella.

Patricia Carswell: 42:19

So it sounds like you have spent lockdown frantically busy. Not getting a lot of sleep, by the sounds of things!

Sue Anstiss: 42:27

It's good job we weren't able to have a holiday this year, because we didn't really need one, yeah! And I think it's just come at a time... it's interesting, isn't it with the collective? Actually, we've done almost I think now we're doing them weekly for this second lockdown of... on meetings and networking meetings for women to come together. We're doing webinars on a weekly basis. But it's been so, not easy to do, but because we can do it from, you know, on a zoom basis and have people ... we've got women from 36 different countries that have joined the collective, it's been amazing. And actually on a call last week, we had people from Mexico and the States and China, all over, coming on to a call. So that's been a wonderful thing is connecting women in that way from across the world, from different sports areas, from different disciplines and different sports. So I guess on a positive note, it's been amazing to be able to do that in a way that perhaps we would never have done it as quickly if we'd have launched it, and then expect people to come physically to events. So it's definitely accelerated what we've done then. And I think it's grown really rapidly because people do feel a little bit isolated. It's been a great way to you know... suddenly you've got 150 women on a call and there are often breakout rooms and coming back. I always come off of it completely buzzing when I when I come off those calls.

Patricia Carswell: 43:38

And your podcast I absolutely love. You've just got so many fantastic guests on it. So for anyone who's not come across it, it's called The Game Changers and Sue interview, trailblazing women in the world of sport. And it really is fantastic. She's had Dame Katherine Grainger, Clare Balding, Judy Murray. I mean, just so many, Tracy Edwards... and just the list goes on and on and on, and really fabulous people. What would you say you've learnt from interviewing all these trailblazing women?

Sue Anstiss: 44:14

It's been an amazing experience. I'm so lucky to have got to talk to them. And actually, because I do the transcripts, and then the show notes, I get to listen again and again. I learn more every time I listen to them. They've all worked really hard. I think I did... on some of them I do say, what advice would you give for young women in the sector? And I think the majority then have worked hard. So I think that's definitely... I guess not that it's something I didn't know anyway, but I take out that it has made a real difference to them is knowing .. and they're a real mixture. So I guess that whole, you've mentioned some there, but the athletes as well as those working in the sector and those coaching, but quite a similarity in terms of attitude, of get on and do it and make a difference and overcoming their imposter syndrome and being brave to take things on is definitely a message that comes through time and time again, when I say, asking for their thoughts and recommendations, it does feel. Yeah. And interestingly, you talk about what, I ask them a lot about role models, but I guess because a lot of them are probably my age, some younger, but those that have progressed through didn't have female sporting role models, but again, the importance of PE teachers and the people around them to influence, that's been kind of a really strong take out, actually, as to where they, where they've got that from, too.

Patricia Carswell: 45:29

And who would your dream guests be? Is there somebody that that you've got kind of on your wish list?

Sue Anstiss: 45:36

I've got mine, I got... Jess Ennis-Hill had been on my wish list. So it lovely as we got her at the end of last season. Probably Billie Jean King or Serena or you know, one of those those really, really high profile, but actually, it's just fantastic talking to... and I think every now and again, I'm so surprised and delighted by the conversations. I think you can't always tell... you book people and you think know their background, but actually some of them... I mean, I don't know how many you've listened to, but Rose Reilly, amazing Scottish footballer who played in Italy and France as a professional in the 70s and 80s. And so it is one example of someone that, as you look down, you mightn't think, oh, yeah, I'll go and listen to that podcast, but just the most enthralling and fascinating kind of story of her life and all she's done. So yes, I think... I guess in my head, I have a wish list. But sometimes it's not those that you think, it's not... the big names are wonderful, but it's not always those that almost give you the most engaging conversations and so on. So yeah, I've been so lucky. Yeah. I haven't had a bad one yet. I've been very lucky.

Patricia Carswell: 46:36

I agree with that. And your book, what is it called? And what's it about? And when does it come out?

Sue Anstiss: 46:44

So it's called Game On - The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport. And it's actually not out although I have written, I've written the manuscript, and it comes back to me next week. It's been... for the last month, it's been having its first structural edit, but I didn't realise what a long, long process this publishing is. So it will be published, I found out yesterday, it'll be published on the second of September next year, so 2021, hopefully to align with the Women's Rugby World Cup in New Zealand. And I published it through Unbound, actually, which is a format where people pledge(thank you very much indeed, you kindly did), people will pledge for book before it's published. So by the time it's published, you've almost got a whole load of supporters and backers, that have already pledged for the book. So it's been an interesting, really an interesting process from that side to know, I've almost got these people on this journey with me, because I'm sharing it, but obviously I've got a lot of people saying is my book coming? Is it coming now? Well, I've written it, but it takes an awfully long time to edit. And then the cover art needs to be designed. And then they sell it in and market it and what have So yeah, and September's the time that they launch books, you. really. So even if it was ready, by April, May, they wouldn't publish it in the summer, they would wait until the autumn to have most success, so they're quite excited about it, the publishing house, which is great news. But yes, I've really enjoyed writing it. So I planned it for towards the end of last year, and then obviously, lockdown, I've got my head down and, and wrote it. So it's been a fantastic process. I've really, really enjoyed the process of writing it.

Patricia Carswell: 48:13

Well it sounds like you've been more productive than most people in the last year, I really take my hat off to you. It's been an absolute joy interviewing you and hearing all about your life and all the amazing work you do. I have to say, talking of role models, I think you're an incredible role model. I feel encouraged that the future is bright for women's sport, and it's largely down to people like you. So thanks for that. And I will really look forward to your book.

Sue Anstiss: 48:48

Fantastic. Thank you so much. I've really, really enjoyed talking to you. It's been lovely. Thank you.

Patricia Carswell: 48:54

Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this, please tell someone about it and help spread the word. I'll put links to everything I discussed with Sue in the show notes. If this is the first episode you've listened to then do check out the others. And next week, I'm interviewing a sleep expert. So there'll be lots of advice on everything from waking in the night and how to get back to sleep to how to persuade a toddler to go to sleep. And I hope that you will join me next Wednesday for that. Until then, next stroke easy oar.