Sir Matthew Pinsent, 4 X Olympic champion, on being an Olympian, life after rowing, the Boat Race, the rowing community and Celebrity Masterchef

Ep 5. I promised you a special guest for the Girl on the River Christmas Special, and my goodness, I've delivered. In an exceptionally feel-good episode, four-time Olympic champion and Celebrity Masterchef finalist, Sir Matthew Pinsent, joins me to talk about:

• The ups and downs of 2020
• Pinsent family Christmas traditions
• Being defined by rowing
• Looking back on the rowing culture of the 90s/2000s
• The differences between elite rowing then and now
• His struggle with nerves as an athlete
• The challenges of umpiring and the infamous 2012 Boat Race
• How to improve inclusivity in rowing
• Broadcasting and the thrill of interviewing athletes at the Olympics
• Celebrity Masterchef
• Whether we'll ever see him on Strictly Come Dancing

At  the end, Matthew reads out some Christmas messages sent in by listeners.

If you're enjoying the podcast please do share it with your friends, and if you're on Apple, it would be amazing if you could rate and/or leave a review.

Tune in again on 30th December for my Ask Me Anything episode (qq now closed!). In the meantime, wherever you are, and whoever you're spending it with, I'd like to wish you all a very happy Christmas.

Transcript

Patricia Carswell: 0:04

This is Girl on the River, the Podcast. Whole crew, come forward to row. Hello and a very warm and festive welcome to the Girl on the River Christmas special. To those listeners who've been with me from the start, thank you so much for continuing to tune in. I really do appreciate all of your kind comments. And thank you also to everyone who's taken the time to leave a review and a rating on Apple - it really does make a difference. And it helps to make the podcast visible. Special thanks to everyone who participated in last week's debate leading up to the crew announcement of the Great British Biscuit Eight, which was my last episode, and is an absolute must listen for anyone with strong views on biscuits. Now it was essential that my guest for the Christmas edition should be someone extremely special in the rowing world and I have not let you down. He is one of the few rowers in this country to become a household name and deservedly so. Having learned to row at school he went on to be captain of the Oxford University Boat Club, where his crew won the men's Boat Race two years in a row. From there, he went on to represent his country in rowing and won no fewer than four Olympic gold medals as well as multiple World Championship golds, first of all in a pair with Sir Steve Redgrave and later in a coxless four. He's now a sports journalist and broadcaster, as well as being a prominent figure in the rowing world, umpiring at major events. He is of course, none other than Sir Matthew Pinsent. Matthew, welcome to the podcast.

Matthew Pinsent: 1:50

Thank you very much.

Patricia Carswell: 1:52

So tell me how your 2020 has been. Because I imagine that normally, your year would be punctuated by a series of sporting events. So how's it been?

Matthew Pinsent: 2:05

Yeah, like everyone just turned upside down, I suppose. It was a non rowing thing that I was involved in, right before lock down, which was Masterchef, Celebrity Masterchef, and it was just towards the second half of filming that that you could...and it's hard to remember now, but you could sort of feel it coming. I remember watching news reports from Italy and France and what have you. And then the early reports of the virus in the UK and just thinking there's no way we're not going to lock down now. And all the time trying to concentrate on cooking on TV. And then eventually, you know, the production team said, Look, you know, we've got to finish this in basically four days. And if any one of the crew or any one of the contestants goes down sick with the virus, actually, in those early days, there was actually no way of telling it was the virus, it was just if you had a persistent cough, I don't think there was a test available. And if anyone goes down sick, then then that's it, it'll be scratched. And this, this series'll never see the light of day. So that was a very strange sort of counter current to everything else. And then at the same time, almost, the Boat Race was cancelled, of course. And that was, I think, the first rowing event to go. And then in fairly short order the rest of the late winter head races all went, some of which I was volunteering at. And then the big one, I suppose, I can't quite remember when this was now, it might have been about April time when the Olympics said right, we're gonna delay. And then at the same time, you know, I was involved in the discussions around the committee table with Henley and all of those so so it was just a sort of... all these events just get ploughed out the way and what's left behind is sort of worryingly flat and featureless you know, sort of being bulldozed.

Patricia Carswell: 4:12

I think from a from a rower's point of view what's been quite interesting is realising what you miss most about racing, and a lot of people have been saying, actually, it turns out that what they really love about racing isn't the racing. It's the socialising and the seeing their friends, and the getting to rowin other places as much as it is the racing itself. So have you have you learned anything? Have you sort of... are there events that you've missed more than others? Or is there anything you've kind of learned about not going to events?

Matthew Pinsent: 4:45

I think you're right, I think, I think we are actually lucky in rowing because we have a very strong community. You know, we are bonded together by a series of sort of club ties which on the face of it compete against one another, but in reality, it's not really that - it's it's everybody coming together to an event. Yes to race, and as you say, it's the it's the, it's the meeting up in the sort of friendships that last forever. And I, you know, I haven't raced in the UK for, well, since since I stopped my international career. So it's not the racing, I've never over the last decade and a half or two decades, nearly, it's not been the racing for me. Because of that, I've been quite happy to move away from. It's it's been more that sense of, it is community. It is a rowing community that we're all passionate about. And we all want to see it do well and we all want to gossip about it and we all want to see the best people do really well. It's been in some ways, it's been reassuring, because we're still quite strong through it, it seems that we're still coping, okay, and we're gonna bounce back. But in other ways, you're like, Okay, you know, some events, some structures within rowing are held together by volunteers. And if they fall away, then then we really are in trouble. But they don't see any sign of that at the moment.

Patricia Carswell: 6:22

Well, let's, let's hope that we'll soon be back and able to meet up actually on the riverbank. Now we are recording on the first of December for the Christmas special. And neither of us has got Christmas decorations in the background. So are you the sort of person who waits to December to get festive? Or are you putting the fairy lights up straight after Halloween?

Matthew Pinsent: 6:50

No, I think the minimum that we have is we wait for the school holidays to begin for our children. Because it feels as if then it sort of it feels a bit forced to do it while they're still at school. Whereas them finishing school is really - even though that obviously is quite close to Christmas, then it feels extra exciting to be putting the decorations up and you know, we sort of have a couple of days of Christmas shopping as a family, you know, where there's sort of... right, you've got to go with mum now and then you can't come and see where I.... that sort of, you know, machinations about who's buying what for who. So actually, for us, it happens all quite late. And certainly Christmas Eve I I quite like I only like wrapping presents then. Ah, yeah. Is that far too late for you? Is that is that making you making your skin crawl that's leaving it far too late.

Patricia Carswell: 7:48

That is the... I mean, I don't even start before December. But that actually reminds me of when I was a lawyer and I had no choice. I didn't have time to get it done before then. And I remember sitting up till one in the morning wrapping presents and it was just horribly stressful that just ... No,#that's too late.

Matthew Pinsent: 8:07

Too late. too late for you. Okay.

Patricia Carswell: 8:11

So do you have any particular traditions? Your wife is Greek? So do you have Greek traditions for Christmas?

Matthew Pinsent: 8:18

Well, no. So what what works really well is the the way she describes it is, and I know it's true, in in Greek families. Easter takes the dominance that Christmas does in sort of British families. So, you know, actually their traditions around Christmas are, whilst they might have a midnight mass or a sort of Christmas Eve or Christmas Day meal, it's actually, the big thing is for them is Easter, obviously Greek Easter being different being Orthodox rather than Anglican. And so actually we've inherited a lot of ... it feels like we've inherited a lot of sort of Pinsent traditions, which aren't I don't think too weird. Although growing up, I now realise that my dad was a vicar and so he never wanted to have any present opening until after lunch, because he was busy doing... well because we'd all have to go to Christmas church service on.... or you know, sort of Carol concert on Christmas morning and then we'd come back and by that point that... by that time everybody's on - the kids wouldn't but you know, Mum and Dad are busy doing the meal and getting granny or whoever around the table and all that. And so between church and lunch and and so actually we'd we'd only start opening presents when everyone's pretty much exhausted and full around the tree at 3.30 or something which just feels an age when you're aching to open stuff. And then, you know in the morning we definitely would have Christmas stockings, but they'd be the small things and there will always be some something big under the tree. So that I suppose is strange and different to everybody else. And that actually I really like because it sort of draws it out. And our kids are now nearly all teenagers. And they just about accept that ... they have had a couple of Christmases where they just opened everything at 630 in the morning or something crazy. And then by 8 they're like, oh, it's all over, you know, it's... I've opened all my presents. And you're like, well, you should have should have spread it out a bit more. And as teenagers now they're saying no, actually, it's quite nice to have have a longer day.

Patricia Carswell: 10:38

So they've learnt delayed gratification.

Matthew Pinsent: 10:41

I think so.

Patricia Carswell: 10:43

So let's talk about your rowing career. Because given that this is a rowing podcast, it would be a little odd if we didn't, but I'm slightly... I'm slightly reluctant about this simply because I'm aware that you must feel that a lot of the time you're defined by achievements in your life that were more than 15 years ago, and I don't know how that feels...

Matthew Pinsent: 11:06

Oh, I'm clinging on to them forever! I think, um, look, if I, if I wasn't comfortable with that, I would have changed tack quite some time ago. I think I knew, you know, in my early 20s, you know, what I had done academically at school or uni, actually wasn't going to be the thing that stood out on my CV. And so then it became a sort of very deliberate sort of career choice of, Okay, well, I'm good at this, you know, I love doing it. We know we're winning. So actually, the longer I can, I can do it, the better my slightly strange CV will look, because otherwise, if I, if I stopped at 25 or 26, even with two gold medals, you're you're sort of gonna struggle to get a normal job. I think it would have been a very strange change of tack at that, at least for me.

Patricia Carswell: 12:19

Was there ever a plan B? Because I imagine as an athlete, you're always aware that things could sort of disappear in a heartbeat. You're an injury away from?

Matthew Pinsent: 12:29

Yeah And, I think I was a little foolhardy in not having a firmer Plan B than I did. But I knew that I loved media, I loved I love the TV, and I loved being, you know, a commentator or a pundit, even around rowing races, you know, I'd go and do, I don't know the radio coverage for the Boat Race or something. And then when when I was asked in interviews, what do you want to do after, after rowing, I'd always say I want to do your job. I want to do interviewing, I want to do TV. And it was only actually in the run up to Athens that then I started talking properly to the BBC about what you know, what can I come and do? And that was a bit more of a serious, okay, your gold medals are great, but you know, now we need to... where do you want to end up sort of thing?

Patricia Carswell: 13:26

So, back in 97, when you had just won the World Championships, you said something that really struck me, you were talking about the feeling of winning that gold medal of being World Champion, and you said, it's not a feeling that will go away. It'll still be there tomorrow. It'll still be there next week. So is it still there? Now? Do you look back and still think Yeah, yeah, that was amazing, winning, not just the World Championships, but you know, the Olympics and then the Olympics again, and...

Matthew Pinsent: 14:01

Of course, and that's something that I think you know, at the time, but you can't quite quantify it, particularly the Olympics. I mean, the World Championships are, are great and are a pinnacle in their own way. You know, World Champion is a nice title to have. But I think everyone in rowing knows Olympic champion is better than a World, you know, you would you would always choose to win an Olympics over a World and, and that's something that you can't get used to or shake off very easily. I was amazed by Andy Holmes. He's died since but his family talked about finding his Olympic gold medals. He rowed with Steve in 84 and 88. And he then left the sport and and his family found his gold medals in the loft. And, and that's like, wow, you know, he really, really left it behind and didn't talk to his children about it - not that I, you know, tell old rowing stories around around the dinner table Well, not every day. But it's sort of it's so much sort of part of my background, that it's impossible not to feel it there. And you know, I've had lots of time to reflect on it. And some of it, you know, is absolutely life changing in all the best ways, but some of the reflections you're thinking, you know, some of the other stories of sport coming out now, it does make you think, oh, blimey, hang on, you know, all right, what, what are they... what they experienced, was that anything like us? And that's, that's sobering in some ways as well.

Patricia Carswell: 16:02

Is there anything that you look back on and think, is a bit uncomfortable with hindsight?

Matthew Pinsent: 16:08

No. And I've, and I've spoken, I've spoken to some of the other guys about it. And I think what, what we always fall back on is that all of us were big enough and confident enough to say, at any point, this isn't what I want to be doing, or this isn't what I want to happen. And certainly, we were not in a situation where there was a power structure around us or above us, that were saying, this is the way it's got to be, or this is what you've got to do, or, and we would have, we would have rejected that pretty swiftly, I think, Well, I know. And the other thing was that actually, we treated other people in the group the way we wants to be treated ourselves. And if that meant, you know, brutal honesty, at times, when it was, it was sort of given and received equally on both sides. You know what I mean? Like, I was just too sure of myself, I can't really believe that I was, but I was, I was just as confident at 19 putting a finger in Steve's face and saying, look, I just don't think that's good enough. And you just think, what, how, how on earth are they have the confidence to do that, but I did. And actually, it got the best out of him and him doing that, to me, was exactly what I needed. And so being being held to the highest standards was, was very different. And being opinionated and argumentative and bolshie was was very different to the worst behaviours that we see in other sports that are now coming out, which just is. Yeah, I mean, we, we didn't bully each other. I think I think that, you know, at its lowest level, that abusive sports team is around, you abuse your position, you abuse, your experience and your leadership and your confidence. And we never I don't think we ever did. I really don't. But, but it is, it does make you reflect on on on some of the things that we held as that is the only way that we're going to win. I don't know that that's actually true. Maybe there was another way.

Patricia Carswell: 18:41

And when you look at Caversham now, it's obviously a much more elaborate setup than than what you had. Do you see huge changes in the way everybody approaches training and preparation for big events?

Matthew Pinsent: 18:55

Yes. But I think there was no, there was no choice about the direction of... the momentum was always And so, you know, actually every time people would begin to put heading in that direction. Because that trajectory was really set from I mean, way back before I was involved in you know, sort of in the 50s and 60s, the national team was made up of, Oh, well, the four that is the quickest at trials or probably at Henley or whate er in the summer is going to go to the Olympics. And we're ot going to have we're just go ng to race one off against anot er and then we'll, maybe for the eight we'll bolt that one and that one togethrt. people together to train for longer, whether that started Oxbridge, probably Leander, Molesey, obviously had a great thing going. London had a huge lightweight thing, Nottingham, all the .... every time we put people together to train for long periods of time running up to championships with one aim they would normally do well. And so actually the logic then becomes, why don't we just put everybody together and get them to train, and everyone do the same system. And we'll get the results. And I don't argue with that logic at all. But what I do think, and I, again, with with, with hindsight, the some of the stuff that I loved about our own career was actually in small groups, we would go on a training camp, perhaps with Jurgen, and it would be eight or 10, or 12 of us. And some of those, some of those things are in that Gold Fever documentary from 2000. You know, it's sort of us and we will be driving our own minibus and training in a slightly strange boat on a lake in South Africa, and then a cycling camp in Florida, or, you know, water camp in Belgium or something. And it was just, it felt much less, hmm, what's the right word? I mean, much less organised. It was I suppose it was amateur in the best and worst ways.

Patricia Carswell: 20:59

Well you weren't wearing helmets, when you were cycling, I noticed that and then you are climbing up like this rock face, it looks absolutely horrifically dangerous. And I was thinking, I bet they wouldn't be allowed to do that. It looked really good fun we do

Matthew Pinsent: 21:14

it was It was really good because you felt that you you had an input into what was happening. And and we'd do things like... I remember one training camp where we turned up at a certain motel. And it was like, right, well, there's no, there's going to be no weight training here. So actually, we then organised a sort of body circuit. And we got a couple of rocks from the rockery and we did twists on chairs and sit ups and it was like it was it was just prehistoric. And and you'd never find that now. But it sort of had a, a sort of organic charm to it, which which made it memorable. Whereas I think, I think a lot of the... I think I think, you know, if you talk to the athletes, what they say is, Caversham is a is a machine in all the best and worst ways. You know it, it just has everybody doing the same thing. Everyone is on a sort of train track heading towards the championships, you can't deviate, there's no chance to train elsewhere. There's no questioning the system. It just is. You're just going in that direction. And, you know, I think I think that's worked brilliantly. Obviously it has up to and including Rio. And then since you've got to say, well, hang on, is it still working the same way? And we'll only finally answer that question next summer in Tokyo where we'll see what comes out but I don't think my career would have been as long if I had arrived at 19 at Caversham - I would not have been there until I was 34 no way... at 33.

Patricia Carswell: 22:56

Do you think it would have just been too repetitive?

Matthew Pinsent: 23:00

I just think there was there was something about training on the river, which is different. Training on a bit of river, even if it's the same water and the same corners again and again and again, there is enough organic wildlife alone probably to keep you interested. And the you know, the - even even the fact that it gets... you know, the stream comes up in the winter, you know makes it sort of Okay, that's a different challenge. And then in the middle of the summer there are the pleasure boats and you've got to dodge those and then Henley comes and we've got to get round the booms as they're going in and all that sort of stuff, made made our training base a more interesting place than just going up and down a 2K lake which is you know, anaemic by comparison.

Patricia Carswell: 23:51

So once you'd finished, you'd obviously been planning it for a while, was there any sense of anticlimax?

Matthew Pinsent: 24:01

Yes. But I in some ways I wanted the anticlimax. I wanted a summer where I didn't feel like the whole of last year was riding on the next six minutes. And that that's just inescapable that, you know, that's the wonderful and crazy thing about sports and particularly Olympic sports is that they'll come a time where it all boils down to now and that I never wanted ever again. Really I wasn't sad to leave that behind.

Patricia Carswell: 24:40

Were you sort of the level headed one of the crew on the whole or how would you sort of characterise yourself in the crew?

Matthew Pinsent: 24:48

Well, I like to think of myself as level headed. But then I would always struggle when it really came to the crunch, when it really came to the Olympics - when you're really under the cosh I just had to battle through. I never dealt with my nerves in a very organised way.

Patricia Carswell: 25:11

Does anybody do you think?

Matthew Pinsent: 25:14

Well, that's a good question. Actually, I don't know, because you only see them from the outside. And maybe from the outside, I looked pretty calm and relaxed. But it, you know, again, I think it's actually it's one of the errors that I think we made is that we didn't use a sports psychologist more. Especially given actually, towards the end of, you know, there were some really good psychologists attached to the rowing team. And they could have actually helped me with some fairly basic coping strategies to deal with that, that situation. But what I'd always resort back to is, okay, well, feeling nervous is good. Which is true, you do want it. But then, once an Olympics, I'd be throwing up over the side of the boat out of nerves and that isn't good. That's too far. But Steve always said Oh, he always knew that I was definitely ready when I was doing that.

Patricia Carswell: 26:14

Do you ever get nervous umpiring?

Matthew Pinsent: 26:17

No, certainly not to the same level, but there's always a there's always a background of right, you know, it could go wrong. Definitely. It could go wrong. Even in the umpires, boat chair seat, whatever the right phrase is. And you know, the, the umpiring that I like most is probably the you know, the more traditional... the Henley umpiring is great. The Boat Race umpiring is great. But those two examples are, they're great until the whole race grinds to a halt. And everyone turns around and looks at you and goes, right? What's your decision? And so you've got to be really absolutely sure ... you've got this sort of constant dialogue in your head going on about, right, what happens if they do that? You know,do I need to warn? do I need to do anything you know, and then particularly the Boat Race, you're probably going to be justifying your decisions under Chiswick bridge to the losing crew because they're always going to be wanting to say I can't believe you did that. And that just goes to the territory.

Patricia Carswell: 27:34

Well, talking of Boat Race umpiring, in my first interview, I talked to Zoe de Toledo, about that Boat Race in 2012. And when I was preparing for that interview, I went back and watched some of the footage. And you were assistant umpire, is that right?

Matthew Pinsent: 27:54

Yes. So the Boat Race has it a different to every other race, in my experience, you have an assistant standing behind you. And in the Boat Race, you know, they're... all the Boat Race umpires have to have rowed for one or the other university. That's a part of the set-up. And then one of the other representatives is your assistant. And so yeah, John Garrett was the umpire that day, and I was his assistant. Yeah.

Patricia Carswell: 28:20

So talk us through how you remember that because I have to say when it when I talked to Zoe about it, I've had so many people say they just found it kind of spine tingling reliving it, and there'll be maybe quite a few listeners who don't know what happened. So talk us through it as as you recall it.

Matthew Pinsent: 28:43

So the last thing I remember before the race beginning was John going over the instructions again and saying right, just to be clear, you look after the radio. And because, you know, we're all on a radio net. And there are a couple of races that go ahead, particularly if the men's race. So you know, they might be reporting back, Oh, it's rough at such and such or there's a in the water at so and so or whatever. So, you know, having somebody ... and if you're umpiring, you're not going to have time to be listening to that sort of stuff. So the assistant has got the radio. And the other thing he said is just keep looking at the river. Because what always happens, particularly in Boat Race umpiring, is the umpire, you just get into this sort of bubble, where there's you and the two crews and you can basically... you just don't look beyond that bubble, because you are just on there staring all the time. And so the race started, and it was obviously a great race. I remember sort of coming under Hammersmith Bridge, thinking this is great because they were just locked together and this could go the whole the whole way. And then coming around.... I mean, it must have been a bit further. So it must have been somewhere down Chiswick Eyot that I thought I thought to myself, I can't I can't just sit here watching the race, I better look up river as well. And then seeing what I to begin with what I thought was a balloon on the water. And then I thought that's weird, because we had quite a stiff wind blowing one way and the balloon wasn't going along with the wind, because it would sometimes, you know, it'd sort of skitter along the water if it was a balloon. And then a couple of seconds later, this arm sort of comes over like this. And then, so, so then it's like, right, there's someone in the water. So then I'm saying to John, right, there's a guy swimming or somebody swimming there. And at that point, he struggled to see because it was quite a long way. It felt like it was quite a long way away. And we had then had a quick discussion about whether the person... cos you're on, you're on a corner, about whether the person was right on the line, or whether it's a bit like sometimes you turn around on the river in London, you look at the navigation buoys, and you think that is in a really weird position. And then when you actually get to it, it's nowhere near the racing line. And I... for a moment, we were thinking, is that person right on the line? Or are they sort of off so, you know, we could sneak past. And then we came to the conclusion probably, it's hard to remember now I reckon within about 10, 15 seconds. We're definitely stopping we are stopping the race. And the red flag that an umpire uses to stop the race is the only other time you use it. It's to start the race - you start it by saying"go", obviously. So we were scrabbling around because I taken the red flag from him and put it somewhere. So I then took five seconds and then thankfully gave him - oh, great, I've given him the red flag, this will be fine. And then he said, right, stop, stop rowing, stop rowing. And they just

Patricia Carswell: 32:05

And the coxes of course are facing the other way. So they don't see the flag. They might they might hear the shouting. But

Matthew Pinsent: 32:12

Yeah, which is no, which is no excuse. Because you're always expecting the crews, particularly the stroke men, to say to their coxes, you need to move this way or whatever. And there's never a reason, you know, to wave the red flag other than to say, Stop. And I can imagine doing it as an oarsman, you, you'd be like, we're not stopping until they do. I'm not stopping until they do. And so they just carried on and carried on and carried on. And then John I think changed as we were sort of rowing down on top of the swimmer. He then changed his call to Zoe, there's someone in the water, don't hit them don't hit, you know, watch your blades, watch your blades, sort of thing. And it was only right at the last minute, it felt like they were going really quick. Actually, they came down onto a paddle and were able to get their blades over the guy's head. And then, again, because the race had stopped, the guy who was driving the umpires' launch - big sort of Thames boatman called Jamie, he pulled the launch- the catamaran - it's a big catamaran sort of, you know, good 60, 70 centimetres of freeboard. And we pulled up next to the guy, and he had reached down what felt like with one hand, and just popped him up, and then plonked him down at our feet as it were. And then as you came out, it was clear he was wearing a wetsuit. And so he wasn't some mad old fool who was swimming after his dog or, you know, some sort of river swimmer who just had a blind moment and thought, I'm just gonna go for a swim this lovely afternoon, it was someone who was, you know, doing it very deliberately. And then within about another 30 seconds that police boat had arrived and taken him away. And then it was a matter of trying to get the race restarted, which is a not an insignificant thing at all. And because of right where it had happened and the racing situation they were, I think they were within about a canvas, you know, they were basically dead level. And so what John had said is what we should do, we'll turn back and we'll start at the point where we stopped which is completely sensible, because actually with the tide running under you, once we got rid of the swimmer and once the crews had, you know, still point the same way we would have probably missed out, I reckon it would have been at least 1000 metres. And that was the last bit of the Surrey Bend, which was Cambridge's station, the last bit of their corner. And so were you just to stay pointing at Barnes Bridge and start up again, it would be right well, you just got whooped around the corner. And they would have been like, well hang on, we rowed 90% of the Boat Race or even 80% of the Boat Race and we've lost. So we then turn them back, got the flotilla turned around, the river was a nightmare at that point, you've got the race organisedrs on the back of the launch saying the BBC are telling us, you've got another, you know, you've got to get this race started again within the next five minutes. Otherwise, they're going to cut the coverage towards the end of the race - that was all going on. And so they then got started again. And I don't know how Zoe described it, but it was just, you know, it just, it just defied logic. To me that it was like all you've got to do is row alongside someone for a couple of minutes past the bandstand. And then you've got your corner. And it's the biggest corner on the course. And all of a sudden, the angle of the bow, you know, it was like that, and John was warning them and they came in for a clash, and then steered away. But the damage had been done. And it was a sort of... I was about to say innocuous, it was a sort of everyday Boat Race clash. But the effect of it was just race-ending. And it was... And I remember, again, having a conversation with John, as we came up to the bridge to say, you know that everyone's going to be wanting, you know, and I think he did really well under the circumstances. And absolutely, from an umpiring point of view, if it had been me in that situation, I would have I would have done the same thing.

Patricia Carswell: 36:59

And I saw some footage of it afterwards, and you looked absolutely stricken. You looked really genuinely very upset afterwards.

Matthew Pinsent: 37:10

I think it was sort of... it's such a complicated event. And it was like everything had happened all at once. And then and then of course, and then, you know, we haven't got on to the guy who collapsed at the finish line, there was a medical emergency on the finish line. And at one point, you're thinking that guy's not getting up, you know, and then it was like, who's who's qualified to look after him? So there was in one race we had - well, we, you know, the umpires panel - had as much to deal with as the last five probably. And there were always going to be questions about was that the right thing to do? Was that the right thing to do? Was that the right thing to do? And there's been lots of learnings about it.

Patricia Carswell: 38:03

So the following year, you were the chief umpire in the same race - that must have been - you must have had some nervous moments before then.

Matthew Pinsent: 38:11

And and when you're doing that role, you go and talk to the crews in the week before the race, and you say, right, let's just go through what's going to happen. Here's the way I'm going to umpire, here's the what I'm going to expect you to do. And so you can have a really - with each boat club, you have a full hour probably, and having questions and answers. And we used to have sort of one or two questions about, you know, the navigation buoys or if the wind blows or something. And then the following year, it was right, okay, we used to joke about the fact that we might need to stop the race. Now we know, you know. And so now the rule of thumb is, if you stop the race, and you're going to restart it, you don't turn back, you just keep going. And that's if, it's if it's someone swimming in the water, you might miss out 1000 metres of the race and you might miss out a bit of the corner. Tough luck. I'm sorry. That's just the way it is. Because turning back was actually so much harder than we than you imagine it to be. And there's been all sorts of learnings about, you know, a crew that gets in difficulty and we had that situation with the Cambridge women's crew. What was that 17? I want to say 17 - it was a really rough year and they nearly sank, but we were sort of- not ready for the sinking but you you knew what was going to happen should they sink, which I think has always been true. But now we know what's going to happen if you have to stop the race or someone gets really sick during the race, someone collapses, all that sort of thing, which is a useful exercise, but they are hard won lessons, I think.

Patricia Carswell: 39:53

So the guy in the water - it transpired he was a protester. And as I recall it he was protesting against elitism. Now I don't think he was protesting specifically about elitism in rowing, but the Boat Race has, I think it's fair to say it probably has a bit of an image problem in terms of the perception that it's a kind of elitist event. And there's always a lot of chatter on Twitter and so forth around the event. So if you were giving a kind of State of the Union address about rowing, and where we are now, what would you , what would you say? Where are we and you know, what are we doing well, what, where do we need to improve?

Matthew Pinsent: 40:42

We are never going to be able to say, the, the battle to be seen as anything other than a posh sport is over. We're just not. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. And I think whether it's Black Lives Matter, or the dominance of public schools, which, you know, for goodness sake, I'm Eton and Oxford. So, you know, if we're talking about privilege and white privilege, it's there in my own sports career. And so what we need to do is build on the foundations of taking the rowing message beyond where it is already strong. Eton are always going to have a great rowing boat club, as are all the boys' schools, basically. But what about the girls' schools? What about the independent sector? And what about the state schools? We have so many things going for us. Rowing is very addictive. It's a fantastic team sport. Actually, compared to lots of sports, once you get a boat club up and running, you'll usually find it's well supported and popular. We don't usually have a problem, getting people to volunteer, whether it's older age groups of rowing, or club officials. That's not - we're normally really well recovered in that regard. What we need to be better at is saying, everyone always lands on Fulham Reach. And I think it's a fantastic example. You know, there was a boat club that didn't exist, started out with a mission statement to take rowing into the less well endowed areas of Hammersmith. And it's done brilliantly. It has done brilliantly, and why can't we replicate that many times over? And that, to me is the sort of - that's the target - you want multiple Dorney Boat Clubs or Fulham Reaches, or the other sort of community outreach. And the States do some amazing things on this. And I think we are just one step behind. And we could do better. And we shouldn't be afraid of saying we must do better and putting our shoulders to the wheel to help to do it. I'm certainly willing to do it. And I just come back to the idea that, you know, rowing is a fantastic team sport- it has it has all the right ingredients to a sport that's going to teach young people good things. And so we should be better at selling ourselves as an answer to a lot of these school and young person's problems. It's it's, it can be a real motivating force for good.

Patricia Carswell: 43:39

It strikes me that there's been a lot of good work going on piecemeal, in terms of diversity and accessibility. And it's only really now that there's a cohesive effort to make a difference. But it does strike me that that's now happening. I've been watching some of the British Rowing webinars over lockdown. And there's some really interesting work going on there. And one of the people I've got coming on the show is Bernie Hollywood. He's working with on the Love Rowing Foundation, which is really exciting. I mean, so much brilliant work, and that will have proper financial backing, which hopefully will make a real difference to communities up and down the country. So I feel quite encouraged. I feel there's a long way to go. But I do feel like the the sort of building blocks are being put into place now. And it's, it's really - I think change is coming now in a much more kind of organised way. So I feel quite hopeful. But I do feel like we're sort of running to catch up.

Matthew Pinsent: 44:46

Yeah, I think that's fair, I think if we look back and try and pick out what the mistakes have been, then actually that doesn't really help. What we've got to do is, look at what is working now, and keep doing a whole lot more of that and work out why we can't. A business person would say, we just need to scale it, we need to, we need to take that and multiply that by, you know, there's a there's a formula to doing it. And we should go with that. I think there are a lot I think, I think the Love Rowing initiative is brilliant. And I think the other thing that we should... we shouldn't be afraid of is that actually our, our demographic gives us a huge amount of impetus. Because people usually come through a rowing career, certainly from a boys' public school, let's be frank, and go on to really well paid jobs. And so actually, if we can maintain their love affair with the sport, which Henley does actually really well, everybody flocks back to Henley. Everyone has a great time, we all watch great racing, we all pay, you know, a fairly hefty price to have a nice couple of days on the river, we should be able to fund good rowing programmes out of out of that population of rowing. And I don't think it's beyond us. And I think there are other clever things around older age groups that we can do as well. Whether that's online or whether that's using clubs at different times of the day, masters rowing, I think, you know, indoor rowing is great, masters rowing is, you know, a growth thing. Look at look at events like Head of the Charles, where actually they have huge quantities, not just at juniors, but age categories as well. So I think we can, there are lots of easy wins, not that they will come easily. But there are lots of obvious steps that we can take that will take money and energy and effort that will achieve great results in fairly short order.

Patricia Carswell: 46:54

And in terms of your own rowing, do you ever get to row? Do you get out on the river at all? Or is it just on the erg?

Matthew Pinsent: 47:03

There's a sort of WhatsApp group of - a Molesey group which started with Johnny Searle and Neil Chugani, both of whom were internationals of my era, and I'm still on the Whatsapp group. I don't get out very often, because weekends feel quite precious now. And actually, they take it quite seriously and go to Vets' Head and Vets' Henley and Head of the Charles in age group boats and try and win them. So I don't get out very often. I'm quite enjoying my indoor rowing for a change - the Zoomergo thing is quite fun. But no, I don't get out nearly as much as I did. But I'm fine with that. I don't... it'll be there when when I want to. And when I have the time to do it again. It it'll be waiting. I don't worry about that.

Patricia Carswell: 47:51

Well, yeah, you're hardly going to forget how to do it.

Matthew Pinsent: 47:55

The trouble is, yeah, you you do slightly, that's the problem.

Patricia Carswell: 48:01

Your hands are probably not as hard as they used to be either.

Matthew Pinsent: 48:04

No, yeah, I would get blisters very quickly.

Patricia Carswell: 48:07

That's been the worst bit of lockdown when you're sitting in a meeting and you suddenly feel your calluses falling off. So talking about your career, now you are a sports journalist and broadcaster.

Matthew Pinsent: 48:23

Yeah.

Patricia Carswell: 48:23

What have been your proudest moments there, because you've done some quite brilliant documentaries.

Matthew Pinsent: 48:31

It's been... I love doing the documentaries. And the sorts of news stuff I did earlier on when I was first joining the BBC, I loved all that. But I really, you know, the thing that keeps me back and keeps me coming back and makes me most excited is going to be particularly the Olympics, the Olympics, Winter Olympics, Commonwealth Games are fun, and sort of being - you're right there when people compete, and then you're there with a live camera - sometimes live - when they are just sort of stepping off the field of play. And that's a really privileged position to be in, because you get to see absolutely everything. And and there have been times where you just, you know, there have been times where someone comes and then and it usually it hasn't gone well and they are just about to sort of offload - and it might be quite a small sport because I get to do I mean, okay, I get to do rowing and, you know, sometimes I get to do some big sports, but usually I get to do quite small sports within within the sort of Olympic family or the Commonwealth family. And you're thinking that there aren't going to be many times in your career where you're going to have a live BBC camera pointing at you - are you sure you want to say that? Because you can see it coming here, just compose your thoughts, we've probably got 10 seconds, just take a breath. And then I'm going to take ... and I'm saying this because I've got the microphone behind my back. So no one can hear me saying it. I'm sort of saying, Look, just pull yourself together, we're about to go in and just think about you, you know, and then I sort of take out the microphone and say, you know, right, tell us what just happened. And then nine times out of 10, they just haven't pulled themselves together at all. But that's sort of... that's wonderful as well. And it's just strange that, you know, for the first part of my career, it was just unheard of, to have a live camera. You know, if you if you watch the gold medal performances of Coe and Ovett and Daley Thompson, you get, you get no reaction from them. There's no one at trackside to ask them, ask them questions about they've just won the Olympic 1500 or decathlon or whatever, because the technology did not exist. They just were not interviewed. And now it's become such a staple of sports broadcasting. But it's- people would be aghast if you didn't interview people, and some people say oh, it's really unfair, and you shouldn't be there and you shouldn't be asking them that and you know, because really, my job is to...when they've done well, it's it's easy. When it hasn't gone well, then you've really got to be asking them the same question which is going around their head, which is what the hell happened there? And that's not easy. It really isn't easy.

Patricia Carswell: 51:45

What are the most exciting events to watch live? I've never been to the actual Olympics in person.

Matthew Pinsent: 51:51

Well, you must go - first of all, you must go. Because actually, nowadays, okay, Tokyo might be different. But I would recommend it to anybody, particularly when, you know, the last year has taught us all this stuff we're missing out on- I would put an Olympics up there as a sort of amazing human experience to go and watch. But for me, I mean summer, summer for me, I mean, I love the thing, I mean, okay, I love rowing because I know it inside and out. But canoe slalom, I've got a soft spot for and I do that because it is just- you can just see that thing which I mean everybody knows in canoe slalom of course, but it is etched on them, that the harder you try and go quick, sometimes just doesn't work. And those gates do, when they try to get t their body through those gates and they touch one and then they know that's it, and we don't have a moment like that in rowing, we don't, you don't, you're not looking at a person's face where it is clear that they're not going to win anymore and it turns like that. So I love - that is particularly vicious and sort of horrible to watch but you can't but watch, you're there to watch and I think the.. I get to do, in Winter Olympics I get to do sliding I get to do bobsleigh, skeleton, which we're great at, so it's wonderful British stories a lot of the time.

Patricia Carswell: 53:25

Have you ever tried it?

Matthew Pinsent: 53:26

No and I wouldn't, I wouldn't. You you can do a sort of taxi bob on some of the winter tracks. You're not actually pushing, you're certainly not driving, and skeleton - no you can't have a go because skeleton and luge - the the sort of open things are mad. I wouldn't I wouldn't do it. I just wouldn't. And it wouldn't actually bring anything to me that I ...I know enough from talking to people what it's like, particularly when it goes wrong.

Patricia Carswell: 54:04

You're happy to watch.

Matthew Pinsent: 54:05

Happy to watch.

Patricia Carswell: 54:08

Now we must talk about food. You mentioned earlier Celebrity Masterchef. And you got into the final and came joint second. Is that right?

Matthew Pinsent: 54:20

I'd love to think it was joint second. They just don't tell you.

Patricia Carswell: 54:23

Oh, they don't tell you? Oh, well you got through to the final anyway.

Matthew Pinsent: 54:27

Definitely top three, definitely a medalist. Yeah, it was me and and Sam Quek and Riyadh won. And and they said, right, Riyadh's won, right, Sam and Matt, thanks very much, bye bye. And Sam won a hockey gold medal in Rio. We both walked out of student and as the door shut, we both looked at each other and went, Well. I came second! You didn't! No, my starter was much better than yours. No, you weren't on time with your pudding. And it just, it's gone on like that ever since - it's funny. Yeah, but sorry. I don't know what the question was now.

Patricia Carswell: 54:59

There wasn't really one! But has it changed the way you cook?

Matthew Pinsent: 55:04

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because because it makes you very disciplined - because it's all, you're all under the pressure with time, right? It's either 60 minutes or 75 minutes or an hour and a half. And then you've got to try and do you know, and then getting the things in the right order, the process is in the right order. And so I'm much quicker than I was. And I'm much more confident than I was because, you know, actually, my nightmare going in was that challenge, where you've got, they've got a sort of shopping crate on the counter, and they lift it up, and there's some ingredients, then it's just right, cook with that. What can you do with that, that just sent shivers down my spine? Whereas now, I'm like, okay, you know, provided it's not, I don't know, sweetbreads and wild mushroom and raspberries, I'd, I'd have a go if they give me a chicken breast or, you know, some lamb... and what was fascinating was, as I sort of prepared and then went through the show, you suddenly realise that actually, your skill set goes from like this, and it just goes wider and wider, wider very quickly. Because you suddenly realise, actually, that skill, you know, cooking, I don't know, broccoli is actually no harder than then cooking ... I mean, it's no, no easier than cooking fennel, or artichoke? Or, you know, once you get used to dealing with tha... Yeah. And so the confidence just came pouring out of me. And once I was on my game, then I was then I was cooking really well, it was great fun.

Patricia Carswell: 56:47

So you did that right before lockdown. So presumably, you haven't been able to try it out on at dinner parties, you... you've... Have you been fine dining your way through lockdown?

Matthew Pinsent: 56:58

No, and there are a few things I will never cook again. I did a pigeon dish. Because you get told for your heat, you get two cooking days where you had to prepare recipes. One is one course. And then you have to do two courses, either a starter and a main or a main and a pud. And, and those for the judge... you know, they're sort of recent winners who come back and judge on that. So those are the two things that you know, you've got coming. And you basically where... you can get sent home actually before those two... but all after one. But those are the two things I was concentrating on. And for about three weeks, I practiced that pigeon dish until I could basically do it in my sleep. And it's delicious. But I never want to cook it again. But yeah, there are lots of other things I enjoyed. And sadly, there were lots of other things I had, because we had a whole series of challenges in from the semifinal through to the final, that they said, Oh, we wanted you to do a brunch dish. And then you're going to have to do another thing. And you're going to have to do this. And there were loads... there was a rumour of an overseas trip somewhere for the last four, and there was going to be another big catering where you where you cook for lots of people, but a really high end one. And there's going to be another restaurant service that I loved. And all that just got swept away by the by the onset of the virus.

Patricia Carswell: 58:25

So what's your, what's your signature dish? Now, if you were having to impress someone, what would you make?

Matthew Pinsent: 58:34

I could do a cannon of lamb is amazing. But it's actually really expensive - I ruined nearly ruined - you know, broke the bank on buying ingredients. The butcher near me, just now just says Do you want any more pigeon? I'm like, No. Because I would go in for about two weeks straight and go. I'll have two more. Two more, two more. And then because you're not allowed to say, they were - they just carried on and went What? I can't tell you. I can't tell you and then, you know, halfway through lockdown when they reopened again, I went back and I said yeah, it was Masterchef. And they said yeah, we thought it was - we - when's it going on?

Patricia Carswell: 59:17

So having done Masterchef, are you going to do Strictly 2021?

Matthew Pinsent: 59:24

No. I told I, I think ... Strictly asked, like when I soon stopped rowing. And I said no. And when you say no, they sometimes come back and up the money offer, which I think they did. Because they thought it was a sort of tactic. And I said no, no, it really doesn't make any difference how much you're willing to pay. This was back in... I think it was going in 2004 - it's been going a long time, hasn't it, Strictly? It was certainly much sooner after rowing. And I said a definitive No.

Patricia Carswell: 59:59

Is that because you can't dance or don't like dancing because you know, maybe your skill set would improve like your your cooking done...

Matthew Pinsent: 1:00:06

Well, both, actually both. I would be starting from a very low level. And I've no doubt that I would improve. But actually, I mean you look howJames got on... I think I think for people who aren't particularly good, it's clear you're not going to win. And so you've got two tactics, either it's revel in how bad you are, and sort of take the take the mick out of yourself, or improve really quickly and get really good. And neither of those things I was I'm ever gonna happen, you know, I'm not going to be... I'm not ever going to be a good dancer. And I'm actually not going to be that comfortable just being the sort of the the dancing joke, where it's sort of, you get this once every series where there's someone who is patently rubbish, but everyone votes to keep them in because it's a sort of, Oh, look, aren't they doing well? It's really fun watching them be really rubbish, sort of thing. And I just don't want, I don't want that. So we're just never, and I've been offered various bits of reality TV over the years, and I've - the vast number of times, just, d'you know what, I just don't, I'm not going to enjoy it. I'm just not going to enjoy most of those formats. It just, it's just not me.

Patricia Carswell: 1:01:33

But I think you chose well with the cooking...

Matthew Pinsent: 1:01:36

I did because it actually isn't, you know, genuinely it really is how good you are at cooking. You know,I was always happy enough to... look, if I make a cock-up about cooking it's not the end of the world. And it's a fairly gentle reality format. It's not being on an island and starving yourself for weeks on end. It's not being in a jungle and eating weird stuff - it's, you know, it's a bit more gentle than that.

Patricia Carswell: 1:02:10

So before we get on to the Christmas messages, I'm going to do just a very few quickfire questions. First one is if, God forbid, the house were burning down, and you were allowed to rescue one bit of rowing memorabilia, what would it be?

Matthew Pinsent: 1:02:27

Well, everyone safe.

Patricia Carswell: 1:02:31

Yeah, that goes without saying and the dog is fine. Don't worry about the dog - the dog's fine.

Matthew Pinsent: 1:02:36

Well, the Olympic medals are in a box. So I'd probably go for them.

Patricia Carswell: 1:02:41

That's a bit of a cheat- is there one that is better than the othe?. I mean, is there a difference? Are they different size from each other? Or is there like a standard gold medal size?

Matthew Pinsent: 1:02:49

No, they are slightly different sizes. And actually mine are a lot smaller than the more recent ones. You look at London's and Rio's - they're massive compared to ours. So I feel a bit cheated by that. But no ...ours are relatively, you know, sort of 90s, 2000s, are relatively, you know, not very much bling going on.

Patricia Carswell: 1:03:11

Okay, so next question, favourite stretch of water to row on.

Matthew Pinsent: 1:03:17

It's hard to get past Henley. But Henley is not always flat. We've already talked about that because Henley in the winter can be streamy. And in summer it can be wavy. Lucerne is pretty magical, very flat. And it's a sort of perfect, perfect rowing course, because it just fits inside the banks. So yeah, between those two I'd have said.

Patricia Carswell: 1:03:43

So next question. Do you have a recurring nightmare where you're sitting on the start in the Olympic finals, and you've forgotten to train and you've got the wrong kit on?

Matthew Pinsent: 1:03:56

Every now and then I, I have a racing dream. But it's not being not prepared. It is result based. And interestingly, I used to have it during my sports career as well. And so you'd dream that you were at the Olympics and you'd raced and sometimes you'd won. And then you'd wake up and find the Olympics are still six months away.

Patricia Carswell: 1:04:24

You still got to do it. Yeah.

Matthew Pinsent: 1:04:25

That actually is the nightmare. So it is actually a real - you know, you wake up feeling Oh, I did i,t amazing... you know, you're like, no, no, it's February.

Patricia Carswell: 1:04:37

And last question, what is on your Christmas list?

Matthew Pinsent: 1:04:41

Welly boots, running trainers because both boots and trainers are completely knackered at the moment. What else did I put? I wrote quite a few things, oh, sort of boring blokey things like tools and gardening implements and very sort of practical gifts that are just I just say, this is what I want. Here's the link buy this one don't buy any other. This is exactly the sort of thing, so it's all quite practical things, but then my wife and children always quite good at slightly going around that and giving me subtle hints like no, this is a much nicer jumper than you've ever worn before you should, you know, cos I never ask for the right things.

Patricia Carswell: 1:05:27

So we'll finish up... I asked the listeners if they had any Christmas messages they would like you to read out so you are now going to be a cross between Father Christmas and the best man at the wedding reading out the telegrams.

Matthew Pinsent: 1:05:40

Okay. So the first one is a message from Jan and Martin for their daughter Catrin, who is born on the morning that you won your final Olympic gold and whose birth was speeded up when her mum got overexcited watching the race. Catrin has been suffering badly from concussion the last year - that sounds horrendous. That stops her playing her beloved football. She's played since the age of four and hopes to build her career in and around her sports. So the ongoing and persistent concussion problem is a major challenge for her. So the message is, Catrin, you've already suffered a lot with injuries in the last year. But you are an incredibly determined person. We know that you will make it through this tough period to achieve your goals. Just like your sister Lowri, you have the ability to overcome your personal challenges. We are so proud of both of you. Keep going This message is from Monmouth Rowing Club to our president John Jenkins. It starts, Congratulations, John, on your significant birthday. And on 60 years as a member of the club. We appreciate all you do for the club. And we will miss you on your retirement as our junior coach. You see that is amazing. That refers back to what we were talking about earlier about how we are so blessed in rowing - 60 years of volunteering - an amazing turnout. The third one is a message from Sue Cole. So thank you to the committee of Barnes Bridge Ladies and Cygnet Rowing Club - I run past there on occasion - for everything that you've done this year to keep us safe and entertained through our zoom ergs and quizzes and giving us as much water time as possible. Also special mention to the Barns Bridge Ladies Pairs Head Committee and all the associated volunteers and umpires for giving us one racing highlight in 2020. The fourth one is a message from Kath Finucane from Avon County Rowing Club. She was of OUWBC - Oxford University Women's Boat Club to Sally Anne Lewis of ACRC- Avon County. From the start of the first lockdown and through the summer you have set up and led zoom Ergo and zoom exercises three times a week - wow, three times a week all the way through lockdown - you kept us interested and built our fitness while working full time from home. When we win next summer we have you to thank. Right that sounds like gauntlet down from Avon County!

Patricia Carswell: 1:08:21

Noted!

Matthew Pinsent: 1:08:22

Noted. A message from Christine Fawcett to Grosvenor Rowing Club Chester, and the committee volunteers there. We'd like to thank all of our committee, who like everyone else this year have faced the uncertainty that this year has bought to us all, for the time they give of themselves on top of their busy lives, for the endless energy they all seem to possess, for the responsibility they take, for the gift of time and effort they give often with little recognition - that happens far too often as well - to ensure the club functions and rowers can just row. Yes, we all suddenly realise we used to take that for granted when you can just rrow. And finally, we can never put a value on the time they spend on committee work. How can you value something that is priceless? So we would like to say thank you from all of Grosvenor and wish them a happy Christmas and offer best wishes for a better 2021 for everyone. Oh my goodness. Do we not all wish for that?

Patricia Carswell: 1:09:19

Absolutely. Well, that seems like the appropriate message to end on. Yeah, we're all hoping for better times in 2021. So a huge thank you, Matthew, for coming on the show. It's been an honour and a pleasure. And all that remains is to wish you and everyone a very Happy Christmas.

Matthew Pinsent: 1:09:45

And yeah, I look forward to seeing you on Zoomergos for Christmas Eve. I think it's a Thursday morning.

Patricia Carswell: 1:09:51

Wow, there's challenge laid down. It's gotta happen! When I announced that Matthew Pinsent was to be my guest for the Christmas special, one of my friends asked, Where on earth I would go from here, and I think he was worried that I'd peaked too soon. Well, never fear. My first guest in the new year is a five time Olympian, the wonderful Frances Houghton and I know you're going to love her interview. I've also got plenty of other interesting people lined up for next year's episodes. Some already known to you others complete unknowns, but all of them with plenty to say. Next week's episode on the 30th of December is my Ask me Anything episode. And I have to report that of all the questions that have come in, not one of them was easy. I'm afraid I'm not taking any more questions now. But thank you to everyone who sent one in. Now I know this Christmas isn't going to be easy for everyone. Many of us in the UK have had to change our plans at the last minute, myself included, and are missing out on seeing loved ones. And for most of us the annual Boxing Day row is going to be held on zoom. But wherever you are, I hope you can take some comfort from being part of the rowing community. As Matthew, said it really is a wonderful thing and has brought enormous comfort during this difficult year. Wherever you're spending the festive season I hope that you have a very Happy Christmas. And next stroke, easy oar.