Frances Houghton MBE on being a five-time Olympian and other life lessons

Ep 7. I wanted to start the year with a really special guest, and my goodness, that's what I've got for you! Frances Houghton MBE has represented GB in rowing at five Olympic Games. She has won three Olympic silver medals, four World Championship gold medals and one European title. She's also an incredibly thoughtful person who's collected an amazing amount of wisdom over the years and has distilled it into a brilliant book called Learnings from Five Olympic Games, which you can buy here.

Frances was an absolutely brilliant guest and, in common with other Olympians I've interviewed, incredibly and not remotely starry. We talk about:

•  Her life in Cornwall - walking, sea swimming, gig rowing and surfing
• Whether she has any unfinished business, looking back at her rowing career
• The change in mindset she adopted after Beijing and how it enabled her to return to rowing
• Togetherness and the Rio 8+ (plus the challenges they went through when the crew was dismantled and seat-raced)
• Honesty and cohesion in crews
• The Olympic training regime
• Periods and hormones
• Whether she was able to retain the joy of rowing despite the tough regime
• Frances' relationship with the ergo and her tips for erg tests
• Whether you ever actually enjoy a race
• What it feels like on the start (and the weird thing about vinegar)
• Olympic Village life and the differences between the five Games
• The post-Olympic crash
• Learning not to be the expert in the crew
• Sports psychology
• Cooking and training as a chef and the Ballymaloe Cookery School.

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Thanks again for being part of Girl on the River. I'd love to hear from you - let me know what you think of the podcast, who you'd like to see guesting on it, what you'd like me to talk about. You can find my blog at Girl on the River and do come and say hi on social media at @girlontheriver on all channels.

Transcript

Patricia Carswell: 0:03

This is Girl on the River, the Podcast. Whole crew, come forward to row. Hello and welcome back to Girl on the River, the Podcast for Episode Seven. I wanted to start the new year with a really special guest. And I'm happy to say that that's exactly what I've got for you. Frances Houghton MBE has been to five Olympic Games. In her 21 years representing Great Britain, she won three Olympic silver medals, four World Championship golds, and one European title. She also picked up a huge amount of wisdom, which she has distilled into a brilliant book called Learnings from Five Olympic Games, which is a bit like an athlete's notebook. It's full of bullet pointed notes, and graphs and diagrams and photos. And it's full of tips and it covers everything from coming back after injury to coping with not winning. I absolutely loved this book, and I really felt that the lessons were equally applicable to ordinary amateur athletes and even to business people, and I have to say my own copy is already looking quite dog eared, which is always the sign of a good book. I'll put the details and a link in the show notes. Now, I've got one favour to ask of you. If you're enjoying the show, please tell just one person about it who you think might enjoy it, too. I'm really finding it fascinating talking to all these amazing people each week. And I'd really love to share it with as many people as possible. So that's enough for me, let me dive in and introduce you to Frances. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on.

Frances Houghton: 1:47

Thank you so much for asking me it's just so lovely to be able to chat about these things.

Patricia Carswell: 1:51

Well, let's start with where you are at the moment. You're living in Cornwall by the seaside. How is that?

Frances Houghton: 1:59

Oh, it's wonderful. I feel so fortunate to be now, I can sit in my living room and look out and see the sea. And just at the bottom of our of our driveway is the start of a footpath of the coastal path. So you know I've got a real thing for walking and footpaths so I just feel really so fortunate that we can have access to the outdoor space.

Patricia Carswell: 2:21

Are you an open water swimmer as well?

Frances Houghton: 2:24

I have been in the harbour - I have been in the harbour, yep. It's fresh. And this strange thing where I put my hat on - the, you know, bright colourful hat to make sure that everyone could see me and the fisherman wouldn't run me over. And I thought that would keep my head warm. And I was freezing and just at the end I thought I always like to take my hat off so that I get properly you know, all of me wet and I got a lot warmer. I thought that was really...

Patricia Carswell: 2:47

That's weird.

Frances Houghton: 2:48

Yeah, I think it was...

Patricia Carswell: 2:49

Maybe it was the burn!

Frances Houghton: 2:50

Yeah, I think I had this sort of warm... it was just too much contrast between my body and my head and then it all sort of got into some cold equilibrium and and then it was better.

Patricia Carswell: 2:58

Oh, I'll have to try that, though I'm, I'm firmly of the wetsuit variety in the winter. I'm not someone who's brave enough to to go in in skins. Have you done any coastal rowing?

Frances Houghton: 3:10

I haven't, and largely for the reason that... so there's, there's gig rowing and there's surf boat rowing. And I see the gig rowers going out from the harbour down here. I think Newquay are pretty good at the old gig rowing thing. They go to the Isles of Scilly and conquer all when they all have those hundreds of boats... It looks spectacular, doesn't it? I'd love to go and see it for real. But when I first moved down here in 2017, Easter 2017, and you know, they contacted me and I thought, I just don't want people relying on me anymore. Not for the moment. And I really enjoy trying different things and being a bit freer. And sort of not being looked to to provide any power.

Patricia Carswell: 3:51

That really makes sense. And actually, my experience - a few of us from my club went down and tried gig rowing in Cornwall a few years ago, and you really do need power - much more I think than in a fine boat. I found I was just kind of a bit small and weedy for it and the people who took to it were on the whole the stronger people, so people would be relying on you.

Frances Houghton: 4:13

Yeah, they're very heavy, these boats. And so Annie Vernon, who I rowed with i Beijing, she's from Cornwall and as a sort of retirement, guess little fun thing to do she organised some gig rowing- she got us all down here a ter 2012. And we we did some, e learned to do some gig rowing, we did it down in St Mawes nd blimey, I mean even you now, we'd just come back from the Olympics and it was so tir ng. It's amazing. It's a it s a real, it's a real stre gth th

Patricia Carswell: 4:44

I found it was quite humbling for us because we thought oh, you know, we're fine boat rowers, we'll get into this big heavy boat and you know, you don't have the same worries about balance and that kind of thing. So we got in a little bit cocky and it was a very humbling experience because actually it was a lot technically a lot harder than we expected.

Frances Houghton: 5:02

Yeah, I mean, there's there's a whole skill level in just in the fact that there's no, no I'm gonna, I'm gonna get the word wrong now. But there's a gate that goes across the top of the swivel. Have I got that right?

Patricia Carswell: 5:14

Oh, I don't know, I didn't get to that level!

Frances Houghton: 5:16

There's nothing to hold the order in, like on top.

Patricia Carswell: 5:19

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Frances Houghton: 5:20

But the thing over the top when screw it up, you just, you know, if it comes out, you've got to put it back in again. And you're still going at whatever rate 40...

Patricia Carswell: 5:28

Yeah. Yes, exactly. Have you tried surfing?

Frances Houghton: 5:35

I have tried surfing. Now anyone that's been anywhere near a gym with me with me could tell you that I'm not particularly swift moving or agile. So the whole popping up - paddle, paddle paddle and then popping up...doesn't really have- I'm normally still on my on my belly thinking, oh, I think I might be balanced now... Oh, no, that's the sand! So

Patricia Carswell: 5:59

That sounds familiar. So you have the most incredible rowing pedigree. When you look back on your career, do you have any regrets or any bits of unfinished business?

Frances Houghton: 6:16

When I think it would be lying to say that I really, you know, I did set out with a real desire and dream to win the Olympics. And I never did that. And I felt that I was capable, but didn't manage it for all sorts of different reasons. So that's the kind of the big, obvious one. But I do feel that I can look back and say, I got so much out of sport, and so much out of rowing - for me, you know, I'm an introvert, I wasn't sporty when I was younger. When I started rowing, for me, it was a vehicle for so much other interaction, I have something to talk to people about. I could could be in my own little world, but also, then I discovered being in a team with other people and what it was like to sort of piece something together and then do it and then laugh about it. And then, you know, cry and then laugh about the bits that went wrong, you know. So, yeah, I mean, as I get older, I know, it's easier to say, Oh, well, I've got lots of lots of the bits that didn't go so well, as well. So, you know, a real combination of things that I wouldn't say unfinished because I knew going into Rio that it would be my last and I really knew that I tried everything. I tried the real, real hard work, train harder, train harder. I tried thinking differently. I tried, you know, giving myself a bit more space - I had honestly, I tried everything I could think of. So not unfinished, but maybe, you know, yeah, still still not wasn't quite complete. But that's it. I mean, it was okay.

Patricia Carswell: 7:58

Then if you're a perfectionist, perhaps it will never be complete. Perhaps if there'd been a gold it wouldn't have been quite fast enough or quite in the right race that you wanted it to be?

Frances Houghton: 8:09

Hmm. I mean, I certainly think I knew coming out of Beijing, where we were, where we didn't win. And we perhaps had the greatest capability of winning. And that if we had done so, I would have felt quite relieved that we'd done it, as opposed to it being something that we did sort of achieve and managed and unexpectedly, sort of, oh, wow, isn't that amazing? And so, yeah, I mean, it's all conundrums and how you think of it and perspectives. anyway...

Patricia Carswell: 8:40

That's the interesting thing that comes across in your book. I was thinking about the silver medal syndrome that people talk about, I think it was a study by Cornell University saying that gold medal winners are obviously, yeah, top, on top of the world, they're super happy on the podium. And then the bronze medal winners are just relieved that they didn't come in fourth, so they're happy and relieved as well. And then you've got the silver medal winners in the middle, who didn't quite make gold. And on the whole, they found that they were the least happy. But I was really struck by the difference in the podium photos of your crew in 2008, when you were clearly absolutely gutted, you know, you'd won all those World Championships, you were, you were tipped to win. And 2016 when you're just... I get a little bit teary when I look at that photo, because you're just all leaping in the air and you look so happy. So tell me the mindset that that's different between the two of those. Because you were going for gold in 2016, weren't you?

Frances Houghton: 9:44

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'd changed my mindset from saying I had to win to saying, Okay, what brings out my best performance? And actually focusing on what can we create together on - more on us as people and the collaboration. I knew that that would bring out a better performance in me and allow others to perform at their best as well. And I think the difference between that and Beijing where we felt this enormous pressure both on ourselves, and you know, there was external expectation that we should win, and we should complete the set, and move on from those fantastic medals in in Athens to take that one step further. But, you know, it's, it's, it's also true to say that the Chinese were a fantastic crew, and the Germans have never lost in the history of the event, so I'm sure in their nations, they thought that they were, you know, pretty good odds on to be able to have a stab at the gold as well. And that's easy to forget, from our perspective. So yeah, I mean, in Beijing it was all about winning. I mean, we were, it was an amazing crew to be a part of, and there are so many things we did do well. But it was definitely something I learned from given how hard it was to recover from it. And then you know, I had a sort of series of subsequent injuries, illnesses over the next sort of 4, 5, 6 years. And it was when I had, I was out with a quite big back problem in 2014, that I was really forced to reassess how I thought about stuff, because I was sort of lying there, and I was sort of swapping a bag of peas for the hot water bottle backwards and forwards for about two weeks. And I thought, you know, it'll be a miracle if I'll ever be in a crew again, let alone you know, get to go to the Olympics. And that one thing's for sure, this isn't working, like really trying to push myself and push others to just go faster. It's making me ill, it's making me injured. And it's, I'm pretty sure I'm not that much fun to row with. So, you know, and I looked back on the best crews I'd been a part of, like the Athens quad. I mean, even that sitting on the side of the lake in Beijing with Annie and Debbie, and being able to, like jump in the water and make each other laugh, and you think, you know, if in that situation, if you've just failed in front of billions of people, but you can still laugh about it with each other, then, actually, if I've got two years left, what do I want to make more of? And that was, okay, well, number one, I can see that those relationships are really valuable, don't miss that opportunity. And number two, if I look back at those Athens performances, the best performances we did between then and Beijing, I wasn't... in those moments of those best performances I wasn't focused on winning, I was focused on what can we create together?

Patricia Carswell: 12:47

There is that real sense of togetherness, when... I mean, even at the time, I was aware of it following you guys on social media. And you did look like you were having a lot of fun together when you were off the water, and that you'd really kind of gelled as a crew.

Frances Houghton: 13:03

I mean, there was, it was, it was a really tough year, don't get me wrong, you know, there was a lot of competition for the seats. We started off with 14 of us in January. And we had to get down to obviously the eight that would sit in the seats in Rio. But I think what was really special was the combination of personalities and experience that was in there. You know, we had Zoe who ... I've just been listening to her podcast last week. And as you can imagine, she had such a great skill in bringing out the best in each person, understanding each person's personalities, like when does Fran need a little bit of a joke? And when does someone else need a bit of a push and bringing humour at the right time. We had Jess and Katie who'd been in the eight at the Olympics three times. And, you know, in Beijing there was a sort of terrible situation where they got ill beforehand, and you know, they were on good form and then, you know, they couldn't perform at their best. And there was just this real sense of, you know what, this is the last opportunity. And number one, let's make sure we enjoy it. And number two, let's really, really appreciate each other because we've seen what each of us has been through to try and just get our seat. And you know, the seat races we did, you know to know that you're holding someone else's dreams, I mean in your hands because you're holding the oar. And some of these races. I hadn't been in a four since I was a junior, and here I was in Olympic trials and I knew that how I performed was going to affect the rest of someone else's life. And to see each other go through that and lay themselves bare for what they wanted to be a part of was, it was really humbling. And I think that's what brought us together because we really appreciated each other and really what we were trying to put together.

Patricia Carswell: 15:05

Was there bad feeling within the squad at that point? Because obviously that decision to dismantle the crew and bring in the women's double to have a bash at coming into the eight must have caused some some turbulence. So I've sort of, I'm curious to know how the friendships were affected and how much tension was going on within the squad.

Frances Houghton: 15:31

Yeah, it was it was really, really tough. And it was a bit of a side swipe. You know, we'd won the European Championships in Brandenburg. And I thought one of the best races that I had been in, in terms of execution of what we said we were going to do, and that's really key in a crew, and building a crew, is, does it do what intends to do, you know, it decides to make, it makes plan, does it do it, and then it can review it and move on. And, and we did that. And by winning that we knew that really, we were, we were halfway to the... that we knew we were, we had the ability to be on the Olympic podium, because, you know, it was the Americans and the Canadians after that. So it was the next day, we came back to Caversham to be told, you know, the women's double, I'm not sure if they made the final in Brandenburg, but they were certainly struggling. And it really brought back memories to me of in the run up to Sydney, they changed the crews around just about six weeks before the Games. And to know that that template had been used as justification for doing it again, and knowing what effect that had had on my, on my Olympics, let alone sort of my career beyond that, I really found it very hard to know that other people were going to be experiencing that all over again. So it was really tough, but I thought that the crew handled it really well. Because by that point, we had relationships where we could talk about it, honestly. And I thought what was really telling was the day that we were told we were sitting in a room at Caversham. And the two people that were the most upset were our spares. And you know, and of course in one sense, you know, if two people came into the eight, then maybe they would then not be spares. But they really cared about what they felt a part of. And they could see that it was a really great, functioning team. And I think if your spares are saying this is this is wrong, and I'm really upset that this team won't be held together, then that really tells you something about the team.

Patricia Carswell: 17:54

And talk a lot about honesty, don't you - how important that honesty was within the crew. Do you think you can be too honest?

Frances Houghton: 18:02

Um, I think you can talk too much, you know, there can be too much going on. The thing about that was that... I could... it was, when I was really trying to pull out the common denominators of the best crews I was in, it was, I could tell that the ones that were able to have honest conversations safely, that was another level. And it was the common denominator that distinguished those crews from the ones that really struggled, you know, really just couldn't quite reach an understanding or a coherence or a common language or just the unity that a good crew has when you're racing and that kind of openness. And when I really thought about it hard I thought, yeah, those are the ones where we always felt like I was sort of treading on eggshells a bit or didn't want to upset someone or, you know, we just didn't have that level of relationship.

Patricia Carswell: 19:05

Do you think men's crews achieve that level of togetherness that you did in your Rio eight?

Frances Houghton: 19:13

Oh, yeah, I'm sure some of them do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I don't know. I've never sat in a men's crew, so I don't know...

Patricia Carswell: 19:22

Oh, fair point, yeah!

Frances Houghton: 19:24

I imagine they might be sooner to be honest, and might be quicker to make up. I don't know, that's such a sweeping generalisation on on women, men and relationships. And, you know, I think when you get to the elite end, it's a slightly different way of functioning anyway, and we know, you know, we spend so much time together. You know, it's not, it's not the same as sort of friendships or relationships in normal everyday life. We might see each other, you know, hopefully once or twice a week, you know, it's quite different.

Patricia Carswell: 20:00

Yeah, so how many hours are you spending together a day when you're doing that full on training?

Frances Houghton: 20:07

So it was three sessions a day, Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, two on a Wednesday, two on a Saturday, and then one on a Sunday in our own time. So it would be if I mean, from 7.30, in the morning to four o'clock in the afternoon, you're out on the water, having breakfast together, out on the water again, having lunch together, probably sharing a lift to Bisham to do your weights, doing your weights together, sharing a lift to get home. And then that's your day.

Patricia Carswell: 20:41

So if it's not too indelicate a question, and this is a possible might delete later, did your periods ended up synchronising?

Frances Houghton: 20:49

No, I don't think so. I mean, I really, you know, I,

Patricia Carswell: 20:54

I ask that because I went to boarding school. And, you know, it used to happen with roommates. So I was just curious.

Frances Houghton: 20:59

No, I mean, it's a really, it's a really interesting question. I, I think... So in the spirit of openness, I think it's, um, our periods didn't sync, as far as I know. But one thing that was really challenging as a woman was having constant trials and tests, through, you know, through, you know, through the months through the year, and, you know, some women find it much harder to perform well, at certain points in their cycle. Yeah, so then it's a whole level of management that's different, and maybe not yet fully appreciated. And you would have to really pick or have an open mind about certain races, because there are, there are days that so many of us feel this is not going to be a good one.

Patricia Carswell: 21:51

It strikes me this is an area that's been really under researched. Because, you know, my own experience as a very amateur athlete is that, you know, over the years, that has made a huge difference, you know, what's going on hormonally. And then for a lot of my crew at the moment, or, you know, my squad, there are a lot of people going through menopause, and there's a whole new set of challenges. And it just feels like no one's really got to grips with this area, I think there's a really kind of rich seam of research to be done.

Frances Houghton: 22:21

I certainly know that they're trying, I've been aware of a few studies. So maybe it's incredibly hard to pin down and articulate and get the data on to be able to [ ] the other side, I definitely know there are efforts.

Patricia Carswell: 22:36

So let's talk a little bit about life as an athlete. The training is notoriously hard. And you've just told us about the seven days a week regime. Are you in danger of kind of losing that joy of rowing? I know, it's the thing that pulled you in in the first place was that feeling of moving the boat through the water and what a thrill that was. Do you still hold on to that when you're really doing the hard yards?

Frances Houghton: 23:03

Well I did, and certainly, in my last couple of years, when I was building back up from my bedroom floor, being injured, and really knowing, you know what, I really do only have, you know, a couple of years left, and is there anywhere else I'd rather be than in this boat. No, this is actually really wonderful thing to be able to do. And be out there, especially when the weather's good. You know, it's just such a great feeling. So I did have that awareness. And maybe because the training every day is split up between the rowing machine and the weights, actually, when you go out on the water, that can still be the best bit of the day. So I think most people still really enjoy the rowing bit - they might hate the ergo, might not much enjoy weights, but rowing.... And you still get those ups and downs of, or especially, you know, the ups, that was a really good one, that was a great burst, or that piece was really good. And it still gives you that feeling of ah, that's good.

Patricia Carswell: 24:09

That's good to know. And what what is your relationship with the ergo - are you love or hate or a bit of both?

Frances Houghton: 24:17

I did not enjoy the week before an ergo test, you know, the thinking about it was definitely better when I didn't think about it and just sort of did what did but I know, I actually I quite like the ergo - it's really simple. It's a really efficient session. You know, sometimes if the water is really bad, and we went on the water and sat on the ergo instead, I quite like that as that well. It's going to be done in an hour and 20 minutes and, you know, just sort of get going, so... it is okay. But you know, I was quite strong on the ergo so it's probably, you know, it's a very different perspective if you're one of the ones who have a more disparity between their ability on the ergo and what they do on the water.

Patricia Carswell: 25:00

So talking of erg tests, do you have any kind of mental tricks to get through it?

Unknown: 25:07

Well I know what worked for me, but that doesn't mean anyone else. For me, it was about going off in a rhythm and staying in a rhythm. Don't worry too much about doing a start. And don't overcook it, because the amount that you make up in the second half is so much more than what you lose if you go off too hard.

Patricia Carswell: 25:30

Oh, there's nothing worse than that feeling, is there?

Frances Houghton: 25:33

No. that bad situation!

Patricia Carswell: 25:36

I think we've all been there.

Frances Houghton: 25:37

Mm, yeah.

Patricia Carswell: 25:39

And in terms of racing itself, you know when you're watching athletes, they're being interviewed by Clare Balding or whatever, and they always use this phrase, well, I'm just gonna go out there and enjoy it. Do you actually enjoy a race? Or is it, is that just the wrong sort of phrase to use?

Frances Houghton: 25:59

Well I'm sure some people do. But that whole enjoy it thing always... it's like, this isn't enjoyable. I'll'be really happy and I'll enjoy the feeling if I get it right. But right now, I'm pretty nervous because, you know, I'm don't know what's gonna happen. And it's probably gonna involve, well, it will involve a lot of pain. And I feel like I need to remember to do the right things. So I enjoyed the... what did I enjoy about it? Yeah, I enjoy the challenge. I enjoy finding something, something out about ourselves. I enjoyed piecing it together. And that opportunity just to be in a moment, now that I'm sort of, my life beyond sport, you know, there's so much going on. Whereas when it comes to racing, everything else falls by the wayside. This is what this week's about, all this is what this day is about, just, it's quite brain cleansing. So once we're in a rhythm, that bit was good, especially in some of those quads, I mean, in the eight, everything was moving so fast, I'm sure the girls will be happy to say I didn't have much idea what was going on, I was just trying to move fast enough. But in the quads, you know, I was sort of more adapted to that. And some of that, I mean, especially that Athens quad, some of the, some of the rhythms we got into were just... you know, just incredible, you thought... you know, and I remember in Athens was probably one of the first times we'd actually wound down properly and had proper energy for a race, because even through the World Cups you're training through and don't really have full recovery. And I was in the middle of this race. And I just thought, Well, I can just keep going. This is I know, I actually feel good. And that, yeah, that that was a real special one.

Patricia Carswell: 27:48

Are you one of those people who remembers every bit of a race? I mean, some people seem to have a sort of encyclopaedic memory of every moment of every race. And some people just, it's a blur.

Frances Houghton: 28:00

I tend to remember certain moments. And I actually thought that was often a... it was... I struggled to articulate this in the book, so I actually left it out. But the best crews often would come off the water from a race, and there would be these snippets in time that we all remembered. And it could have been one stroke, or one thing that happened outside the boat, that we were a,ll we were all so in sync ,that we clocked in almost like all the tracing paper fell on top of each other in these one or two moments.

Patricia Carswell: 28:33

Oh, that sounds amazing.

Frances Houghton: 28:34

Mmm. Yeah.

Patricia Carswell: 28:36

And what about that moment when you're sitting on the start? And there's that... I had a tiny glimpse into what it might be like for an actual elite athlete when I was at the World Masters last year and to my great delight, they called us by country, so they would actually call us Great Britain - it was like, ah, so exciting. But it's kind of almost surreal, you're there and it's like this is finally happening. All that training. And for us, we're talking months, we're not talking four years. But for you guys, you're talking years. What is that moment like for you? What would be going through your head?

Frances Houghton: 29:15

Yeah, well, it doesn't get any more fun, the more times you do it. And I remember sitting on the sideline in Rio, and I knew that my whole career would be defined by the next six and a half minutes, because, you know, I'd had this up and down time. And, you know, we definitely have the potential to win a medal if not challenge for, you know, challenge for it all. And we had a plan. And I remember sitting there and thinking, that's true, but you're a part of this crew and you have committed to rowing in a certain way and we have a plan and you're committed to these people - beyond anything you're committed to these people - to do what we said we were going to do and to deliver what you're capable of delivering today. And we were sat there and we had the Christ, the Redeemer statue just above on our left hand side. And we had favelas - some of the poorest favelas in the world behind us. And some of the richest apartments in Rio, just above to our right. And you just thought, I mean, this is, this is crazy, you know, we're in this, this sort of huge context of great perspective. And yet, this little world means so much to me right now. And for those big finals, it would be the only time that the coaches would clean the boat - for a World Cup they'd clean the bottom, but when it was the big races they used to clean the inside as well, with vinegar, so they'd always take their vinegar out with them. So you're sitting there and you think I'm feeling pretty nervous. I don't particularly want to have any more water and all I can smell is just wafts of fish and chips! Because they're like trying to get everything as shiny as possible - you think, oh, God...

Patricia Carswell: 31:01

So do you now associate the smell of vinegar with sitting on the started at the Olympics?

Frances Houghton: 31:07

Yes! So you think oh, no, you didn't need to do that, that's not going to make it go faster.

Patricia Carswell: 31:13

Do you use vinegar in your cooking anymore?

Frances Houghton: 31:16

Well, I upgrade but they didn't use balsamic vinegar on it so it's safe now.

Patricia Carswell: 31:23

So talking about the Olympics, you've been to five, which is absolutely incredible. There are very few people on the planet who've had had that experience. Is the atmosphere in the Olympic Village markedly different between the different Olympics that you've been to?

Frances Houghton: 31:39

Well, that's a really good question. The Sydney Olympic Village felt incredible, you know, I came second to last in Sydney. And I would walk out the gates and there were Australians just sort of milling around there wanting to chat to anyone, they didn't care that I hadn't won or even made a final. They were so into it. And the village had a ferry to take the athletes from there to the centre of town, I just felt so special. And I know your first Olympics for everyone is a real wow factor. But it was I mean, everything is shiny and new. And there's so much cultural expression as well. And maybe that's where there is a slight difference from Olympics to Olympics is how each nation expresses their culture in that context. So, you know, in Athens, you know there were lovely little shaded walkways. Beijing, you know, it tried to do things quite a bit, you know, in a grand way. And Rio, you know, it didn't have as much budget as other Olympics but it certainly made up for it in in feel, like a warm, welcoming feel. And there's always so many volunteers around who were so helpful. And it's feels like such a family. Everyone's supporting each other. And it's because of the unique environment where you can look at anyone and everyone knows that they've worked really hard to get here. You can tell by the look on anyone's face whether they're competing today, or they've already finished, you know, and it's just, you think, Wow... And then I remember in Sydney, I could see... it was that Sydney was the only one we stayed in the village while we were competing. And I feel so fortunate that I had that experience. And I looked out my window and I could see the Olympic flame of the stadium.

Patricia Carswell: 33:36

Amazing.

Frances Houghton: 33:38

Yeah. And then I looked down and there was a running track that went around the village. And you see these long distance runners. And honestly, I mean, I don't think their feet were touching the ground - its just floating from step to step. I just thought, Oh, this is - I mean, freeze life right now. This is incredible. So yeah, I mean, there is a there is a different feel to each one. But essentially, you know it felt like a festival dand a onor celebration and real respect, real respect between people,

Patricia Carswell: 34:10

And do you actually get much of a chance to meet athletes from other disciplines?

Frances Houghton: 34:14

So generally, whilst you're still competing, you would be sort of staying in your own bubble. And afterwards, when we moved into the village in the other Olympic Games, obviously we were feeling more chatty by then. And generally the Team GB will sit - there'll be an area that they say, Well, if you want to sit amongst other Team GB athletes, you know, come and sit on these tables. And that's when you can chat to all sorts of different athletes, as well as obviously mingle across the... I mean, they, I think the the Olympic Village dining hall is the biggest marquee in the world and it goes from one Olympics to another, gets shipped from one to the next.

Patricia Carswell: 34:59

Oh, that's incredible.

Frances Houghton: 35:00

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, that's, that's a great opportunity to meet other athletes. And I'd say one of the differences between each village was that some had more sort of games areas than others. And that obviously gives an opportunity to meet other athletes again with pool or, you know, go for a walk something like that.

Patricia Carswell: 35:19

I bet that gets competitive.

Frances Houghton: 35:21

Yeah.

Patricia Carswell: 35:23

Now, I heard Adam Peaty talking about the Olympic crash, when you know, when you've been to an Olympics where it's gone well, or where you haven't, at least haven't been disappointed. He said you can come back and just experience this incredible crash. Have you ever experienced that?

Frances Houghton: 35:40

I think I grew in awareness that it would be coming. And so I sort of knew... the one thing that I did was, I have a great friends who have sort of been with me and watched my career and even rowed with me since I was really young. And I think it was after Sydney, I came back and the next day, I went out, you know, I said, No, let's have dinner together. And I just downloaded everything, and they just sat there, they probably had 100 questions, but I just need to tell you this, and I need to tell you this, and I need to tell you this. And I think that really helped me because I think what's really weird is you have so many stories to tell. And you want to tell it to all your friends and family who haven't been there. But it's all off the TV, everyone's moved on and forgotten about it, you know, if you've done well, maybe you're still doing some interviews, things like that. But you don't, you can't sort of, you can't share it. And the people that you've just spent loads of time with, you know, they've all gone back to their own homes as well. And maybe they're not, you know, we've just spent four months together so that you know, you want to chat, but you also want to chat to your friends and family. So I kept that in place each time. So after Athens, and in fact, these friends came out to Beijing, which for me was, I mean, it seems such a small thing, but having what happened in Beijing and not winning, but to be able to go out with people that really knew me that evening, and you know what, we'll still go for dinner. And we'll still talk about it and still talk about all the amazing things that did happen today. And all the other things, all the other sports that are going on, because that's the other thing. You've been to the Games, and you've done your thing, but I... especially in rowing you've got very little knowledge of, because I tried not to watch too much other sport, but all the other stuff that's gone on. So it's almost like you need another week, so you need your own Olympics on TV to happen afterwards. So you kind of feel like you've missed out, but also the world's moved on but you want to chat about it,

Patricia Carswell: 37:37

Did you get a chance to see many of the other events in other sports.

Frances Houghton: 37:43

Well, this is something that changed over time. So in Sydney, we had almost free rein, I mean, we applied for tickets, it was great fun, so in the evening, say on a Monday evening, you would have been saying oh, I want to apply for tickets for, you know, the gymnastics or swimming or something the next day, and then there would be this ballot, and you go up to the postbox in the morning and see what you'd been allocated. And there was an athlete's section in every stand in every venue, and there - you always seemed to get something. Whereas as it went on through the different Games I went to, there were less of these tickets available. There are so many more people coming in almost as VIPs or spectators around the village, as well as taking up all these tickets. And then there seems to be a whole sort of allocation of, well, if you won a medal then we'll give you a ticket. But if you haven't, then you know, maybe watch it on TV...

Patricia Carswell: 38:39

Oh, that must be rubbing salt in the wounds for a lot of people.

Frances Houghton: 38:44

Yeah, well, I think especially when you've ... I experienced that, you know, the first version, which was, oh, every you know, it's great, every you know, anyone's celebrated, and yes, of course, there's space for you, you know, you've done your competing, there's an athletes' stand, you know, we'll provide you with a ticket and you go and watch all these different things, to then the point where, yeah, sort of lots of strangers , you know, to think that a lot of our training we're thinking - to become an Olympian is amazing. And one of the privileges of being an Olympian is be able to walk around the Olympic Village. And I remember arriving in Beijing, and I just... Debbie and I were walking - Debbie Flood and I - were walking around the village for the first time and we just both looked at each other and said, I know it was hard, but it's worth it, it is so worth it for this feeling. And to know that people are just sort of buying their way in was tricky. But um, I think one of the most amazing things I ever saw was Cathy Freeman in Sydney when she won the 400 metres - so we were sat in the athletes' stand which were supposedly the cheap seats like after the finish line, but of course, you know, we saw her walk out in that full body lycr suit, kneel down, put the ho d over her head, take a mom nt to herself, and like the ex ectations of the entire co ntry we're on her. And it re lly fell silent. And all you co ld see around the stadium we e these flashbulbs go off. And then she crossed the line in fro t of us. And the whole sta ium just erupted. And there she was just a few feet away fro us. And she knelt down and you know, sat on the floor and too her gold spikes off, and I just thought, wow, you know that.. you know, that's just... fe ls so privileged to have seen that and been there

Patricia Carswell: 40:41

Talking of that level of pressure, you know, you were saying she had all those expectations, as British rowing has become more and more successful, and the women have now got Olympic medals, and we've had lots and lots of golds, do you think that has put more pressure on athletes coming into the sport? Do you think it's more difficult for athletes coming in now than it perhaps was when you started your career?

Frances Houghton: 41:07

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, when I was first coming in, it was... if you made a final, that was, that was really good. And it's something that I'm really keen to, when I was still rowing, I was really keen to make sure I still said that to, you know, people I was rowing with, or the people on the squad. You know, it's still an amazing achievement, that you're still at the top of a sport, this is absolutely brilliant. And that's part of what I was really keen to pass on to the girls in the eight was, I was the only one that had won an Olympic medal before. We all knew how hard it had been to even gain our seats to be in Rio at all, and make sure we pat ourselves on the back for that. And I actually, when we were selected for Rio, and we, you know, we were held together, we... the girls that were tested won their trials to remain in remain in the eight through the season. And just a few days after that race, and we were selected to go to Rio by Team GB. And I thought this is a really important moment. So I wrote a card to each of the girls in the crew, and I said, Look, you know, savour this moment, because you've become, you're going to, you're going to be an Olympian. And this is what you're great at, please keep doing this. And it's, you know, such a, you know, I'm so lucky to row with you. Press pause, and pat yourself on the back. Because, you know, in a week's time, we can be worried about how fast we're doing. But right now, this is such an amazing achievement.

Patricia Carswell: 42:48

That's really lovely. It must, it must have been difficult at times not to be... I know if I'd been in your shoes, if I was the one who'd won Olympic medals, and it was my fifth Olympics, I would have been tempted to always be the one going, well, when I was in Beijing, or when I was in Sydney, and always kind of knowing, you know, kind of imposing that knowledge on other people. Did you have to be careful with how you shared your experience?

Frances Houghton: 43:16

Yeah, it's something I've thought about a lot. But I knew from the previous years that it really wasn't helpful. So I kind of learned the hard way. But I'd eaten humble pie. Like I knew that for others, it felt claustrophobic. It felt, you know, even to be the one saying, Look, I know that we can go really fast or no, we can be better, actually, that can make people feel less comfortable. And it doesn't make them feel like they can do it too. It makes them feel lik, oh, Fran, you know, your standards are just so high, like I'm tired of it. And people don't necessarily realise or believe what they can do until they've actually done it. Just because I can see it from the outside, it's not helpful for me to say this is what we can do. And I was actually chatting to Zoe de Toldeo, our cox, yesterday. And she said, I don't know if you remember but one of the first things she said that I said, when I joined the group was, Girls, I don't know how to row an eight like you do - you tell me. And I think you know that was it. And that was really important that I really tried not to impose anything on anyone, you know, and I really tried to filter what is useful and what isn't. And telling people what to do is not useful. And I see it now that I almost changed from being a dictator in the previous years to more of an energy director, because I could see that especially in an eight, you've got nine of us and what's really important is the energy is positive, that it's constructive. And we're always moving in the right direction. And it's always about the race. We're not talking about what happened today out there on the lake. It's like, Okay, what about today is significant in terms of building our ultimate performance for all of us.

Patricia Carswell: 45:16

I got the I got the impression that there was a lot of sports psychology and a lot of thought about all of this. Is that's another thing that's changed over the years in the sport?

Frances Houghton: 45:26

I know it's changing now, the amount of sports psychology support. There wasn't an enormous amount when, when I was a part of the team, you know, we had a very low number of hours sort of contracted to help, to be accessible to us. I sought some external, you know, I talk about it in my book, I went to see Steve Peters -

Patricia Carswell: 45:45

Oh, he's amazing.

Frances Houghton: 45:47

The Chimp Paradox. Yeah. And I know for some people, it doesn't land at all, his depiction of the chimp. But for me, it really did resonate. And it really did make sense to me, what he was describing, and it helped me understand how my brain works. And that was a that was a big turning point for me. You know, I went to him sort of halfway through my career and a bit of a low point. And he, you know, he said to me, that confidence is just this thing that waxes and wanes. So what you need to understand is what makes you feel confident. And that's when I started to unpick, okay, well, my best races have come when I have this calmness, and that calmness comes from, I fundamentally believe in myself. And I trust the plan that we've put together and I trust the people. So actually, let's stop chasing confidence, and build the trust and give myself permission to believe. Because that's the thing that I see so often, especially actually not, especially in women, but obviously, I've only closely worked with the women's squad is sometimes we're reluctant just to give ourselves the permission to believe in ourselves. So it's okay, you can believe in yourself is absolutely fine, isn't it doesn't mean you're saying you're going to do it. But I believe that I could. And so, and that's okay to believe that.

Patricia Carswell: 47:16

I wonder if that's nature or nurture, if it's that we're brought up to, you know, have less confidence than men or whether it's just that we naturally tend to feel like we're imposters?

Frances Houghton: 47:32

I'm not sure. You know, sort of going back to your previous question about, you know, the standards have gone up and up and up in in the rowing squad. And I think that's a difficult environment to keep your belief No matter how much you've got it. Because I mean, the standard that you're working to every single day is beyond world record pace, that is what you're being compared to every day. So you could start off with it. But it's also I think it's also challenging every day to keep hold of it.

Patricia Carswell: 48:08

I heard an interview with Chris Hoy, where he said that his experience is that all athletes are incredibly insecure, because you're constantly being measured, like you say, against the highest standard, and you're only as good as your last performance. And it does create a sort of level of insecurity that perhaps doesn't exist in in other jobs.

Frances Houghton: 48:29

Well, this was something I sort of began to worry about the last couple of years, I thought, am I trying to prove something? Or is it that I don't feel like I don't have something that I really need to prove, you know, if I change my mindset from I've got to win to, I still believe that I'm capable of winning, and I want us to win, but I'm going to think about it differently. Do I just not need to prove something enough? Is... is there not enough wrong that I need to right? And I thought, well, if that's the case, then that's not such a bad thing, either. So go with it. Don't question it on a whole nother level? Yeah, you know, it's, it's very true. I mean, athletes are a unique species. And it was something that really frustrates me sometimes, as people say, Oh, you know, you must have been really talented at rowing. And actually, yeah, I had certain attributes, but a lot of the attributes that some of the top athletes have is this persistence of doing the fundamental basics, exceptionally well, day after day after day. And that discipline. You know, it's not, it doesn't feel uncomfortable to me to be really disciplined about stuff. And so that's not really talent for rowing. That's traits that are really deeply ingrained and I'm conditioned to, if that makes sense?

Patricia Carswell: 50:02

Well, that's what struck me when you said, you talked in the book very early on about how you made a vow, when you were young that you were going to do everything you could to get to Sydney Olympics. And what struck me was the way you put that because you didn't vow to get to the Sydney Olympics, you vowed to do whatever it took to get you there. So you were right there, from the very beginning, it was all about what you were going to do, the work you were going to put in to get yourself there. And I think that probably is that distinction between people who think, Ah, that's what I want to achieve. And this is what I'm going to do to achieve it.

Frances Houghton: 50:38

That's really interesting. I'd not... because those are the words I wrote down. And I've not observed that before. That's so perceptive. But that's completely right. You know, I was focused on, Okay, so I am prepared to do what it takes, you know, I was at school at the time. SoI thought, right, well I will get up before breakfast, and I will go for a swim or I will run when everyone else gets a min bus down to the lake, because that is what it's going to take. And that's where my focus was. And maybe that's where I had to come back to. Because once I started thinking about the end goal, it just didn't, didn't suit how I function best and where I operate, sort of highly. And I would always be better on a training camp than I am back home because there's so much consistent rhythm to it. You know, everything happens the same day after day after day.

Patricia Carswell: 51:31

So yeah, no, that's, that's really interesting. So right from the start without even knowing it, you defined your own philosophy, your career?

Frances Houghton: 51:39

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I should have just kept going from that point, really. Yeah. But you know, when I, when I did change my mindset in the run up to Rio, because I asked myself, how do I want to feel when I stand on the podium? And I said, well, the ultimate sporting experience for me would be to stand on the Olympic podium with my arms around my teammates, sharing a moment of joy with them. And I thought, in that moment, I want to have my arms around them, and I want to look them in the eye. And I want that to be a completely genuine moment, not like, Oh, isn't this isn't this nice? We've done this today. But yeah, and it for it to evoke all the days in the lead up to that point. And to know that we'd brought everything together and that we really knew each other and we're really happy for each other, knowing each other, and knowing that we're all different and are there for different reasons, and but really appreciating that in each other and be happy for each other. And that's where my focus came back, sort of almost like a hosepipe untwisting. I then started focusing on the every day, so it was like, well if that's how I want to feel on the last day, then each and every day in the lead up to that point, it's about us as people together and what we're working together and understanding in each other every single day. So yeah, perhaps I should just should have rewound back to Sydney.

Patricia Carswell: 53:12

Now let's talk about food. I know that you took some time off to train as a chef, and it was the Ballymaloe Cookery School. Is that right?

Frances Houghton: 53:20

Yeah, I did. I was so lucky. Yeah, I went there. So after Beijing I took some time out to reset, recover. And I remember my sister saying to me, actually, look, you may never have another opportunity in your life to take months out, go and do something like this, go and do it. And gosh, what a place! It's like the good life but on a big scale. You know, you start the day by picking the vegetables or making the stock and then you cook and you grow produce and then you watch demonstrations in the afternoon of what you're going to cook the next day and it's a self sustaining cycle of cooking meals for everyone, you know, that works there as well, the gardeners and everyone, to eat each day. So Ah, what a place. What a wonderful... I definitely recommend it when we're all allowed out. It's a wonderful place to visit.

Patricia Carswell: 54:14

And what's your style of cooking?

Frances Houghton: 54:16

Home feeding, I'd say - very simple stuff. I mean Ballymaloe is more about cooking than cheffing. Darina, who runs it, she's a bit like... she's not our Delia. She is a very wholesome woman who very much believes in making the most of what's around you locally and a huge supporter of the local area in Cork, whether that's fish or cheese, meat, everything is local. But she will... she has a philosophy of teaching all the skills and if you want to go off and be a chef, she will knock on a door and kick it in until it falls down and give you an intro into somewhere, whereupon you can start to learn the cheffing element of being in a restaurant. And she was great because I went there in 2009. And this was just when Ottolenghi, which is in London and just started to, had three or four cafes, and so I thought, oh, it would be great to have an experience there. And she got me in there. And I worked there for for a couple of stints of a few weeks. Yeah, as a bit of work experience, which was I mean, their food is just fantastic. And obviously, yeah. So that was a real opportunity I'm glad I took.

Patricia Carswell: 55:35

Would you ever do it as a as a sort of second career.

Frances Houghton: 55:39

So actually, when I moved down here, I did some cheffing for a company that does outdoor feasts, like long table feasts up on the cliff top and we did weddings. And it was really good fun. I saw it as my doing task, as opposed to all the thinking stuff because at the time, I was still trying to write the book and articulate that. So it was really refreshing to have this practical thing to do with other people. I really enjoyed it. But, you know, doing weddings, it's, it's weekends, it's really, you know, goes on late into the night. And there was one time when I was I was counting up dirty cutlery out of a bin basically. And I just thought, you know what, this is nice. But there are other ways to cook. I did, I did a stint at Honey & Co in an actual proper restaurant, in London. And honestly, you know, I'm really happy to say put my hands up and just say it's too, it was too hard and I'm too old. It's such a hard thing to do. Being a chef, you're on your feet for hours and hours and hours and hours, it's really high pressure, you've got to make, really, you've got to have a really quick understanding of what you need to do in a really short amount of time. And yeah, it's tough. Yeah, not for me.

Patricia Carswell: 56:56

So you wrote some stuff for athletes, recipes for athletes who were too tired to cook. Is that right?

Frances Houghton: 57:04

Yeah. So when I came back from Ballymaloe, I did do a couple of courses with athletes, you know, sort of, Can't Cook, Won't Cook, Too Tired to Cook. And I was really keen to make sure that it was as helpful as possible. So I went to their houses and cooked with the equipment that they have, because it's so easy to see, either to read something or see something on TV and think Oh, that looks delicious. And that'll be really easy. And then you come to chop an onion with a, you know, a paring knife and you wonder why it's an absolute pain and it takes ages and then you've slipped off it and cut your thumb. So, you know, I really made sure that I that it was applicable to their context.

Patricia Carswell: 57:43

Do you have any kind of top dishes for people who are too tired to cook?

Frances Houghton: 57:48

Right, number one, make sure you've got stuff in your kit bag, so that by the time you get home, you're not so hungry you could just eat anything. That's my number one tip and I would have one of those small pots of peanut butter and a spoon in my bag. And I mean that covers most bases and an apple lasts forever. You're ready then for anything.

Patricia Carswell: 58:13

And are you food snob about any particular types of food or drinks or coffee or anything like that?

Frances Houghton: 58:20

I do really love good milk.

Patricia Carswell: 58:24

Oh, really?

Frances Houghton: 58:25

Yeah. So I have now found somewhere down here in Cornwall that does, I guess it's pasteurised, not homogenised, and they can't sell raw milk with ... they probably especially wouldn't sell it now. But the difference in taste between, you know... and I go to a farm and there is a brilliant setup because it doesn't quite come out of the udder but this vending machine is on the side of the dairy. And the taste is honestly... you drink any other supermarket milk after that, anything. I mean, there's just no point me drinking this. It doesn't taste of anything. So yeah.

Patricia Carswell: 59:00

Oddly enough, my next door village has just set up a... there's a dairy that's just opened a dispensing machine. - absolutely similar setup and it is second to none. It was... there's no going back from that is there.

Frances Houghton: 59:14

There isn't - this is the trouble. Yeah. Yeah.

Patricia Carswell: 59:19

And if you hadn't done rowing, was there another sport or another activity that you would have done instead?

Frances Houghton: 59:28

I definitely don't think there would have been another sport. As I said earlier, I'm really genuinely not agile. You know, I love rowing for the sort of headspace that gave me. I think if I had been in a Nordic country, then something like cross country skiing might have worked, because I feel like cross country skiing is skiing for introverts. It's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, I can imagine I might have been quite bookish otherwise, I don't know where I would have channelled that Yes, it's a it's a trait but also kind of need for discipline and structure.

Patricia Carswell: 1:00:04

I read somewhere that you're musical.

Frances Houghton: 1:00:07

I did do music music lessons when I was younger. And I think that's where the discipline first started getting trained in. But I think...

Patricia Carswell: 1:00:16

There's a lot of parallels between music and rowing. Actually, I once sort of drafted a blog post for this - I was in a choir, and we had some time out when we were rehearsing for a performance. And I sort of wrote these notes on the back of my score about the connection between rowing and music. And then we have to hand them back in so someone somewhere has got them, and is going to find these random notes on rowing and music, but it's that kind of rhythm and discipline and having to follow a conductor. And

Frances Houghton: 1:00:47

Yeah, and when it all comes together, that magical sort of collaboration,. The two people that spring to mind that would absolutely be amazing to talk to about this are Elise Laverick, who, all the way through her career continued to play in an orchestra and the double bass and Hester Goodsell- and I think she's married now, so it wouldn't be Goodsel - but she is a music teacher.

Patricia Carswell: 1:01:11

She led a choir, didn't she? A rowers' choir?

Frances Houghton: 1:01:14

She led the rowers' choir. I am also useless to singing but you know... so I'm sure they would absolutely agree with you there are so many parallels.

Patricia Carswell: 1:01:25

I'll have to actually finally write that blog post one of these days. So before we finish, a couple of quickfire questions, do you prefer sweep or sculling?

Frances Houghton: 1:01:38

Sweep

Patricia Carswell: 1:01:41

Now, favourite body of water

Frances Houghton: 1:01:45

These are difficult... you'll have to edit the silences ...body of water...

Patricia Carswell: 1:01:54

You can't say the sea!

Frances Houghton: 1:01:56

No, I can't say the sea. It's- this is going to really annoy me because I'm going to think of it afterwards. Lucerne maybe

Patricia Carswell: 1:02:05

Oh, nice. Favourite piece of kit.

Frances Houghton: 1:02:11

Oh, something Olympic. Like an Olympic hoodie, something like that.

Patricia Carswell: 1:02:16

The kit looks like it's improved a lot over the years.

Frances Houghton: 1:02:19

Yeah. Well, when we arrived in Sydney, they realised that on all the rowing all in ones, they'd got the - and the leggings actually - they'd got the red and the blue on the flag the wrong way around. So we had to sew on a little patch on top of the flags! So yeah, it's come on. It's come on.

Patricia Carswell: 1:02:38

And do you subscribe to lucky pants or lucky charms or anything like that?

Frances Houghton: 1:02:44

No. No. I think I've raced too much for too many different results.

Patricia Carswell: 1:02:50

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. It's been so fascinating hearing about all the aspects of your career and your life. And I can't wait to see what comes next. I'm sure it's going to be exciting. And whatever you turn your your hand to, it will be amazing. So 1000 thank yous.

Frances Houghton: 1:03:14

Oh, no. Well, thank you. It's been really nice. You've asked some different questions. And it's just been really nice to go in, go into things and talk more widely about things. So thank you very much for having me on.

Patricia Carswell: 1:03:25

Thank you once again, for listening. I hope you found my interview with Frances as interesting as I did. As I said earlier, if you're enjoying the show, please do spread the word. And also let me know who you'd like to see on the show. I've already had some brilliant suggestions from listeners and I'd love to hear from you about your dream guests. You can find me at@girlontheriver on social media or you can email me at girlontheriverpodcast@gmail.com. My guest next week is the amazing charity fundraiser Bernie Hollywood who's now running British Rowing's Charitable Foundation, Love Rowing, and I think you'll really find him interesting too. Until then, have a great week. And next stroke, easy oar.