Andrew Triggs Hodge OBE on being the last to be picked for the team, life after rowing and Race the Thames

Ep.13 I'm still pinching myself that yet another rowing legend has come on the podcast. This time it was my honour to welcome Andrew Triggs Hodge - three-time Olympic champion, multiple World Champion and Boat Race winner.
Despite his incredible rowing prowess, Andy is ridiculously modest (and really good fun) and we had a great chat. We talked about:

• His undistinguished sporting career at school - always the last to be picked!
• His journey into elite rowing
• Why he's not the easiest team mate
• The dynamic with Pete Reed
• The challenge of retiring
• The demands that high performance sport puts on your body
• The work done by London Youth Rowing
• The benefits of rowing and how it can change lives
• Race the Thames - what it is and how you can get involved
• Dressing up as Snow White (no, really!)
• The Tideway Tunnel project and Regatta London
• What we as rowers can do for the environment

Resources
Andy's interview with Martin Cross's on his YouTube podcast, Crossy's Corner, is here.
You can find him on the Broken Oars podcast here.
You can find out more about London Youth Rowing here.
Details for Race the Thames are here.
You can read more about the Tideway Tunnel Project here.

And if anyone has a photo of Andy dressed as Snow White, I think we all should see it!

Other episodes you may enjoy:

Sir Matthew Pinsent, 4 X Olympic champion, on being an Olympian, life after rowing, the Boat Race, the rowing community and Celebrity Masterchef

Zoe de Toledo - cox, Olympic silver medalist, World Champion, medic, mince pie expert

Frances Houghton MBE on being a five-time Olympian and other life lessons

Transcript

Patricia Carswell: 0:08

This is Girl on the River the Podcast. Whole crew, come forward to row. Hello and welcome back to Girl on the River the Podcast for Episode 13. Now, happily, I'm not superstitious, and I actually feel incredibly lucky to have been able to have a chat with this week's guest, a very senior member of the rowing royal family, Andrew Triggs Hodge, OBE. Andy will need no introduction to the rowers among you. He has three Olympic gold medals to his name, four World Championship titles, he stroked the Oxford boat to victory in the Boat Race, and was one half of the phenomenal pair with Pete Reed, who, by the way, I'm excited to say is coming on the podcast next month. Andy is quite simply one of the finest rowers of his generation, but as you'll hear, he is ridiculously modest about this fact. He's also passionate and extremely knowledgeable about the environment and about clean rivers, and he works closely with London Youth Rowing, which is an absolutely brilliant charity that works with young people from disadvantaged communities, changing their lives through rowing. As part of this, he is organising Race the Thames, which you may have heard me talking about on social media, and which we talked about in the interview, and I'll put all the details in the show notes. So here he is - Andrew Triggs Hodge. Andy, welcome to the podcast.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 1:39

Hey, how's it going?

Patricia Carswell: 1:41

Very good, thank you. Well, I'm very excited finally to interview you, because I realised I was supposed to interview you four years ago, almost exactly to the day.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 1:53

No!

Patricia Carswell: 1:54

Yes. at an event called the Great Row, which was an erg marathon for cancer research.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 2:01

Yes, that's right.

Patricia Carswell: 2:02

Yeah. And you were there. And I was part of this so called celebrity team, and we had like someone from Made in Chelsea and an influencer and me. And we were so slow that by the time we'd finished, basically, you'd gone home.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 2:22

No, really.

Patricia Carswell: 2:24

As had practically everyone else. So it's very nice finally, to make that connection.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 2:31

That is great to finally make this connection as well. It's... I'm very sorry. I'm gonna have to wrack my brains as to what I urgently needed to get home for that day.

Patricia Carswell: 2:42

Well, I think, you know, pretty much it was us and the cleaner by the end. But that was, that was a great event. It nearly killed me. But it was, it was fantastic. And I remember you were erging in bare feet, which I found quite startling.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 2:57

Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm definitely... unless it's zero degrees. I'm a barefoot erger... barefoot ergo-ist... yeah, whatever. Yeah, no, I can't wear shoes. I get too sweaty. I .... in shoes.... I tend to sweat a lot.

Patricia Carswell: 3:12

Do your feet not chafe against the straps.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 3:17

No, no, I've seen people with worse blisters from wearing trainers.

Patricia Carswell: 3:22

Wow.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 3:23

But no, it's no if I was to wear trainers, if I was to wear any footwear, they would be so wet by the end of the ergo, it wouldn't be worth it. I'd have to dry... it'd just be a continuous stream of wet shoes and disgusting.

Patricia Carswell: 3:36

We'll leave that mental image there! Now you have talked a lot recently about your rowing career on various podcasts, most notably, Martin Cross's, Crossy's Corner and on Broken Oars podcast, both of which are well worth a listen. So I'd say to anyone listening if you want to hear all about Andy's rowing career and waxing lyrical about the various races, those are the places to go and I don't want to duplicate too much of that. But I'm really interested in the fact that you came to rowing relatively late - you weren't a child rower. And so what was your sort of sporting life like as a child? What sports did you do, if any?

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 4:27

So I was the kid at school who always got picked last for...

Patricia Carswell: 4:32

No way.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 4:33

Oh, everything - football, hockey, rugby. I was always in the back three for the cross country run. I mean I'm a 100 kilo guy, you know, I grew tall pretty quickly. So being an athlete was never going to be my venture in life. And I remember watching... vaguely sort of the memories of watching Pinsent and Redgrave, I think it must have been in 92 Olympics and just as a kid thinking well it's like a nice sport, you know, it looks low, methodical, it's not explosive you know, sort of kicking a ball. But that fleeting glance of the sport was then you know left to that, because where I lived up in the Yorkshire Dales there was no rowing - my school... you had rugby and a few other sports but it wasn't, we weren't a private school. So you know, sport was a a poor cousin to the the education system. I eventually got into rugby, where I think what I've found out is that where most failed second row forwards go to is rowing. So I started off as a second row forward because you don't have to catch or throw a ball, you just have to have power. And then went to university to follow my sort of passion into the environment, to do an environmental science degree. And it was there in my second year... I did the first year playing a bit of rugby, but didn't really connect with the team. So I asked a friend, you know, is there anything else I should do, any other sports they would recommend? And she said, Yeah, give rowing a try. You know, there's a little rowing club at the uni - nothing much, but it's pretty social. They have a bit of fun. It's all training so you get fit. So I thought, fine, fair enough. And then I turned up to the freshers' fair, put my name down. And I just heard the, the captain of the club, a guy called Ed Green, he just looked at me and he was like, Oh, yes. I was just like... no idea what I'd kind of just signed up to and I definitely had, well, I had no aspirations other than to have a bit of fun, and enjoy something new. I definitely had no idea or no thoughts about becoming an Olympian or a world rower or anything of note. Yeah, and then, well, I grew a love for the sport, I really sort of connected with it, it helped me out, you know, it gave me direction and motivation. You know, we managed to get to Henley in a second year, got knocked out by Goldie on the first day of 1999 Henley...

Patricia Carswell: 7:07

You must have been punching above your weight, then as a university then...

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 7:11

No we were...look, the captain was one, the captain, the coach, the treasurer, the Secretary, all of it was one guy. And he just had this unhinged devotion to the sport. A guy called Ed Green, he's now at now coaching KGS. And he's carried his passion with him the whole way. But he kind of ... it was his inspiration that that sort of showed me what was possible. And you know, because of a number of natural attributes and a number of sort of mental things, the whole thing worked for me, and everything he did, and every goal he set himself, and how he operated had a huge influence in who I've become as a rower. And as a consequence, then it's important... it's influenced, you know, the whole lot, my wife I met on a training camp in Seville, from the Dutch rowing team. And so my life, everything about me, where I live now, has all been affected, because pretty much because Ed Green opened this door and showed what passion and devotion and commitment really means. And it's not that you know, he was destined to be an international coach. He's an incredible club coach. And I've seen him working on the ground at Molesey. But just that passion and desire, it's, it was inspirational.

Patricia Carswell: 8:36

At what point did you realise that you had something extra? Because obviously there's a lot of people who row very successfully at university and perhaps go to Henley and all the rest of it, but they don't go on and make a career out of it.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 8:53

Interesting question. I mean, the way I'd like to think about that is that I don't think I have anything extra - I just put what I can into a team. And depending on kind of which team I can I can contribute to, then I hope I can help make it a better team and all the way through my rowing career I've always stayed kind of in in the short term, and I've let the coaches and the other people around me focus on the long term. So obviously, that was Ed Green at Staffs. It was Pete Shepherd at Molesey, and then through to Jurgen Grobler in the team, and they always had their eye on the big picture. And I just kept on looking at the little picture, you know, just like, what am I doing day to day. And because I was sort of moving up quite organically, I was never sort of put into an environment where... I was never fast tracked. You know, I had to kind of earn my colours as I went. So I was always in a peer group similar to me, so I never felt like I've ever had really anything extra. It's just that, you know, I guess my, I've been fortunate enough to have access to the next level up. And if anything, I've actually always felt like I've been chasing the people who do have something extra, you know, my requirements to train hard and keep training hard was to always push the boundaries and sort of challenge myself. And that's always seeking the next opportunity to fail really, you know, find something I'm not good at, or where I I'm not robust or have little experience in and throw myself at it. And, you know, that's part of the reason why Pete and I went into the pair in... when did we do that? 2008? 9. And yeah, so it's that perspective. I mean, I've, I've just, I just feel like I've been very fortunate to be part of amazing teams, amazing groups of people, personally, and I'm sure my teammates would disagree with our sentiment, because I'm not the easiest teammate to have.

Patricia Carswell: 11:07

In what way?

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 11:08

Well, I'll challenge myself and those around me, and I'll push and I'll question. And it's all my effort to, to kind of create the best, or to uncover as many bits in that team that can be better. And sometimes that means even if it's going nicely, but we've got the time, then let's just break it down for the hell of it and find out actually, and it's a really high performance kind of mentality of being quite obstructive sometimes to get to try and get to a better place, but it's not always a comfortable place to be. So yeah, I've, you know, I I know, I've pushed teams and people quite hard, and it's not always gone down so well, but I've, I've always been very, I've always felt very fortunate to be part of those teams, and very respectful of everyone who's got there along with us. I always feel like even towards, even in Rio, you know, the guys... I'd just taken a year out, I was kind of the last one in that boat, first one out kind of principle, you know, I had to prove myself, but you know, watching that, that that crew perform, and being part of it was, you know, I was chasing that I was... Paul Bennett, the, you know, just giant of a man and Will Satch, this sort of passion, of Pete, obviously, you know, we were brothers in arms for so long. You know, there was everyone in that boat was there for a very, very good reason. And you know, I never had anything on any of them. They were, they were champions in their own right. And I was fortunate to be with him.

Patricia Carswell: 12:44

What was the dynamic between you and Pete, when you were in the pair? Cos you went back quite a long way. So if you were the stroppy one, how did it work?

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 12:54

How did it work, the way I think about it is, you know, Pete's got a number of very, very key strengths, obviously, he's a massive physical guy, you know, I've got areas which, you know, which I feel like, I've got my strengths, etc. But what we were able to do as a team was, we knitted our strengths and weaknesses together very, very well. He created an interesting dynamic, because we had a lot of respect for each other, we got on as, as friends. But because we approach things very differently, it created a, what I call a healthy tension between us. So whether it was we were trying to explain our feelings or our thoughts on the rhythm or the boat, we'd do it differently. So it was always an effort to try and really dig down and understand what the other person meant. And also our kind of solutions came in different languages. So again, it was just a really interesting sort of challenge to, to get to the bottom of what issues were. But because of the difference between us, I felt we were really productive in actually getting to the nub of the problem. It was, it was definitely challenging. I mean, again, I pushed him a lot. And I think it's it only strengthened our relationship, it strengthened our our ability to be better rowers. And we're still great friends.

Patricia Carswell: 14:24

Well, I've got him coming on the podcast soon as well, so I'll be able to get his side of the story. So if you were not sporty when you were at school, and when you were young, do your family and your childhood friends kind of scratch their heads now that you are a sort of multiple Olympian gold medal winner?

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 14:48

Yeah, I was actually at home a few months ago and a friend from school - he's a guy called Ted Mason and he's, he's a fell runner. So you know, for anyone who doesn't know, he basically runs up a steep hill, crosses, gets to a point and turns back and then has to sprint back again. And it's an incredibly physical, it's, you know, 10 minutes of maximum maximum lactate, it's hard. And then you get to the top. And then you have to free yourself of all this lactate and then just fly down the hill. And I can't describe it as running because it's not - you're literally, you're just trying to, you know, single step jump from point to point as you hurtle down this hill. And his you know, his skill was, he was bred to be quick up, you know, he was usually sort of top four or five, but he was a bit mental. So when he came down, I mean, he, he just absolutely flew. It was incredible. Anyway, as a youngster, he was always kind of one of the top athletes- there was a few runners in the school. And, you know, compared to me, I was this stodge of nothing, you know, just couldn't, couldn't kick a ball, let alone run up a hill. And I asked him, it's like, what was it like when... I basically asked him the question you just asked me. And he says, that, really, Hodge... One night, I was out with Alders at the local... you know, I'm trying to do my Yorkshire accent here... at a nightclub, and they were sort of reflecting... I think I'd just come back from Beijing or something. And they were like, how did that happen? Like, Hodge, like, you'd never have seen that coming. Absolutely. No way in a million years would you have picked that guy to do something like that. Just 100%. So I think, yeah, I mean, I think it kind of blew their minds as much as it blew my parents' minds, to be honest. And to an extent mine, you know, I, I didn't figure I was going to go to an Olympics until about, yeah, pretty much until a year before, year before Athens. You know, when we got that bronze medal in Milan, in the 8+, and actually, Athens was then, whoa, you know, we could go, because up until that point, we're a sixth place crew, and there's a good chance that wouldn't qualify. And so yeah, it's been a bit of a mental journey.

Patricia Carswell: 17:14

Do you think there's advantages in some ways, because I've talked to a couple of people on the podcast about this before, the... when we have adult learn-to-rowers coming along the people who struggle most mentally are for the most part, people who've been extremely sporty earlier in life, because suddenly they're coping with a very, very technical sport, which is difficult. And those who seem to cope at least mentally better at the beginning are those were less sporty, because it's no shock to them, when they find that it's a difficult thing to do. So do you think it helped in some ways?

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 17:49

Yeah, I think that's an amazing... a question I've thought a lot abou. You look at the statistics of young people who do a high performance sport, and how quickly they stop. And then if you look at, you know, a big chunk of people in the team, actually how many of them start late? You know, Pete, me... Pete and I's stories are very similar, you know, both state kids, state-educated kids, didn't find rowing until late. And then it kind of just worked. And, you know, there's a lot of a lot of people like that. But then you get the Tom Jameses who started in, you know, at 12 into a... rowed at the private school he went to, Stan Louloudis is another one, very, you know, it doesn't say it doesn't work. But there's a... rowing is a is a sport where you flourish later, it's not like a gymnastics or even like a tennis where you really have to be kind of top echelon at 10 years old. And for that, you know, I think it's, it does sort of mean that you, we can wait, we're sort of driving people into the sport. But then it's the horses for courses, isn't it because you look at some kids, some people will be destined to do something younger, really well, and then let it go to do something even better, to become an international doctor, save 1000s of lives, you know, I'd much rather they were doing that than being an international rower. So you know, we've got, we've got to sort of look at it as a whole. And, you know, as long as systems are really looking after young people, and they give them the opportunity to be performance, and accept that they'll probably stop because of it, it's kind of fine. But then we do have to sort of balance it with the opportunity that people can come in late from all sorts of different areas and they will take it up differently in a different capacity. It's all about the diversity of delivery. And it is it's learn to row courses where people will, maybe they'll never race and they'll just go out for their sort of 8k, 10 k paddle and enjoy it and do what cyclists do when they go out for an hour. And there'll be some people who will become, you know, the Masters champion, having picked it up at 30. So you know, I think it's it is a really interesting conversation. But I don't really see it moving. I think we we have to work out ways to add on and give opportunity.

Patricia Carswell: 20:19

Well, we'll come on shortly to your work with London Youth Rowing, which absolutely does that in spades. One of the things that really came across in your previous interviews was the fact that you never kind of lost that love that you talk about, that real enjoyment of rowing, even with all the graft and the the strain, the physical strain that it puts on you, I get the impression that you always just really, really enjoyed it. So how was it stopping? I know you, you've said you were absolutely ready to stop, but it's a big thing to walk away from.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 20:59

Yeah, it absolutely is, I think. And that's the same for anyone who's been in a in a performance environment where they commit so much, and then are faced with stopping it. Whether, again, a doctor or a teacher, even in the City, you know, where you have CEOs and bankers and people who commit everything to being the best they can be. I think my, my bit of luck in all of this was that I had glandular fever the year before, and I was able to, I was forced to take a period of time away from the sport. That was... a big part of that was You know, I remember going through the winter, we had a tough. young kid a year old, and I sort of had this eye on like, when am I gonna be better to train again? And it sort of made me more angry and frustrated. And, you know, I wasn't the dad, or the husband, I really wanted to be. And I think there was no certainty that I could get back to being the person I wanted to be with rowing. So just made the decision that, right that's it, that's, you know, cancel Rio - that's not gonna happen. Best of the team, and I'll get a job. But because I was still being supported by sort of British Rowing, and UK Sport, then I, I sort of had that safety net. I didn't have the pressure on me to get a job right now, which so many athletes, you know, they get to the end of the three months' grace, and then it's off a cliff. And usually it's done with very little support. There is some great assets out there - Melanie Chowns was absolutely amazing. But it's it's a massive, massive journey to go from 100% rowing to what do I want to do, and it is different to changing careers because you know how to write CV, you know, you know how to behave. And, you know, you've got so many touch points to develop from, whereas going from a performance sport, I think is a massive, massive leap. So yeah, so I had that experience, I had the chance to get out being supported. That's when I found Tideway first of all. I'd had a whole load of other sort of meetings and interviews, and I was able to do that bit. And then I gave myself the chance to come back and I just started doing a bit of training and was able to come back. So then, when I got to Rio, I basically had a job. I knew it was a job I liked and I was looking forward to, I knew my body was knackered - you know I was pulling my own in the boat, but I was a shadow my former self. And I think I kind of felt like I was lucky to get away with it. You know, I guess there right at the beginning of the interview, I was with people who were driving that boat with incredible force, like personality, technique, physical force, and to be part of that was a was amazing, amazing experience. And I felt like what better way to end your career, you know, in a crew you hugely admire with people who were destined their own right to do amazing things all motivated or spirited. And you know, you get to say goodbye on that level. Amazing.

Patricia Carswell: 24:22

See, you're definitely not going to do a Helen Glover?

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 24:27

No, I'm not. No.

Patricia Carswell: 24:31

Did your health kind of stand up to it because I'm... having had post viral fatigue myself with Epstein Barr, I know that it's a nasty one that can hang around and come back. Have you managed to sustain your health?

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 24:46

So may... the best routine I had was commuting. So going into London and then I used to run on this side or cycle on the other. So I was able to do sort of half an hour a day but since lockdown, I haven't been doing much at all, it's a real effort to actually get out and do something. But what I have noticed is that, I don't know if it's because I'm so busy with other stuff now, but exercise really makes me tired. Like, my wife talks about when she's tired, she goes for a run, and it gives her energy. Like, really, I go for a run, and I just want to lay down and sleep the rest of the day. So I don't know. I mean, part of me thinks that, you know, I may have done a bit of damage to the old body. And look, a big part of me thinks that being a performance athlete is as bad for you as smoking. You know, when you push yourself that hard, it's not natural. You know, it's not it's not a healthy way of exercising. A healthy way of exercising is once a day, and you know, you do different things and... but doing something so hard for so long. I'm not convinced it's... And you know, if I'm really honest, I think kind of rowing or doing any performance sport at that level should come with a health warning. We should admit that my heart is too big so it's likely to get, what do you call it? Atrial fibrillation. You know, I had that, you know... a couple of... my metabolism, the way the Epstein Barr's interacted with me, my various back injuries and hip injuries and all sorts, it's... it pays a price. So yeah, I think I'm... I try and get away with a minimum effort now.

Patricia Carswell: 26:29

Do you ever row?

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 26:32

Not frequently. I actually, I promised I'd never get a rowing machine ever in my house... and it was like, I'm done with that thing - it is never coming near me. And, you know, then I started getting involved in Race the Thames, which is obviously an online rowing event, and then I came... started talking to the guy who's running ZoomErgos. And I saw that a couple of times. And I was like, you know, this is, this actually is quite motivational, and I love ZoomErgos. I think the concept is brilliant. It's so simple, it's stupid. It's like, you know, why didn't this happen years ago, but obviously, because COVID wasn't around and no one would have taken it seriously. So now I've actually got a rowing machine in the house.

Patricia Carswell: 27:19

Yeah, well, I... when you did your your ZoomErgos session before Christmas, I did notice your kids kind of thought it was quite fun.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 27:26

Yeah, that's, that's one of the hindrances I have is, you know, trying to eke out anything for me, just doesn't exist. The kids invade everything. I haven't really been able to... I haven't been back on the ergo, probably, since that session, actually, because of tonnes of reasons. But yeah, kids change everything, don't they?

Patricia Carswell: 27:45

Oh, yeah.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 27:46

And that's another reason why, you know, obviously retiring was so easy. Eeke was pregnant with our second during Rio. So she couldn't even go out because of the whole Zika thing. Our second was due then, we've had a third since. Three boys. So yeah, basically, between me wanting to do something positive for the sport and my family there's just no time. You know, I might go for a run. But that's it.

Patricia Carswell: 28:16

Let's talk about that doing something positive for the sport, because we need to talk about London Youth Rowing and your work with that. So we've got quite a lot of non rowers who listened to the podcast. So explain what London Youth Rowing is.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 28:34

London Youth Rowing is a charity that was set up in about 2005. And it was set up to give an opportunity to disadvantaged communities in London, to young people in those communities to access the sport, mainly through indoor rowing, rowing machines. And the aim was to give them a chance to experience a different type of sport, but also as a team sport, which helps to give them sort of various life lessons, which are sort of reserved for the privileged few. So the whole aspect of teamwork, communication, being able to be something different. Like me, they may not have been a footballer or a runner, but actually they may have been a rower or liked rowing, so it gives them a bit more confidence. It gives them something they wouldn't have envisaged doing before. So again, it's that seeking out opportunity and feeling a bit more brave about the world. Now they reach out to 8000 kids across the capital here. They supply them with rowing machines and coaches that goes into the schools. They've got two key hubs across London, one in West London, one in East London. And they're the biggest, I think, I'm right in saying this, you know, the biggest rowing charity, helping more kids directly in the world. So... and then they host an event called NJIRC - the National Junior Indoor Rowing Competition, which I believe is the biggest junior indoor competition in the world. And it started up organically this little thing in Hammersmith Town Hall. And last year they had it at the Copperbox Arena in the Olympic Village. It's too simple to be any good, right? But it's kids from all over the country from state schools mainly come down, they do their sort of two or three minute, four minute or 2k depending on their age. But there's 2000 kids there that go through that race floor in a day. And the energy and the excitement and the the sort of the commitment to the team that shouting and cheering, you just don't get it any other indoor rowing event. I mean, maybe in Holland, I see now one, which was awesome. But you know, as opposed to the most of the others, which are relatively dry affairs, I remember going to the British Indoors. And it was... you just went there to do a 2K and come home. For the kids it's something else completely. And it's really incredible. Yeah, I recommend you go see that.

Patricia Carswell: 31:01

That sounds fantastic. And, and I had a little rummage around the the London Youth Rowing site. And there's more than just the rowing isn't there. There's mentoring and other stuff that goes on as well - it's absolutely brilliant.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 31:14

They do. I mean, I could go on all day what they do, but one of the key things is a programme called Breaking Barriers, where they link up with corporates, and they run a programme with a group of kids from a school where the kids will do six weeks learning to row on the water or rowing machines and develop their team building, those kind of life skills part. And then I'll do an equivalent six weeks in the offices of the sponsoring company. So they'll come into the office, they'll learn what they do. So as part of my projec with Tideway one of our main works contractors bought into Breaking Barriers. So the kids from from backgrounds who they would have never had this sort of access otherwise, but they were going into this construction company. And they were learning about the sort of organisational structure, they were seeing about architects and planners, project managers, comms, the whole nine yards that goes into a 4 billion pound project. And then you know, seeing how these kids came out the other end, you know, that first come in very shy, introverted, you know, they all huddled together. And when they left, they were giving presentations, and they were talking with authority and confidence. And you could see their chest was up and they were going for it. And it was, that sort of work is amazing in any sport, in any shape or form. But the fact that someone's doing it for rowing is massive, because rowing gives back. Rowing is a sport where the more you put in, the more you'll get out. If you let it into your life, it will only have a good impact. There are so many barriers for the sport getting out there properly. But because of London Youth Rowing, because f, you know, Fulham Reach are d ing a great job, there's a coup e in the north, you've got Wa rington Rowing and Row L eds - some great charities out t ere and there are some clubs oing some amazing work. But the level that London Youth owing aspires to, how it's ch llenging itself to push on a d keep giving more to more kids out there. It sets it apart it really is a ver

Patricia Carswell: 33:23

So if there were a PE teacher listening, who doesn't really know anything about rowing, put the case for make the case for rowing, and why they should persuade the school to invest in a rowing machine or investigate rowing as a possibility.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 33:40

No, it is not just about kids having a bit of fun of rowing machines. Obviously, that is the delivery model. That is how they're going to get into this. But it's the effect of what happens after that. And I'll tell this from a personal story, because it's exactly what happened to me. When I started uni I was going to be... I was on course for a third, I had my dad banging on the door about how I should be an apprentice and not at uni. And he was probably right. But then I found rowing. And it showed me what I could do when I found the thing I loved or that I enjoyed doing. And I'm speaking to everyone who's not a footballer or rugby player or a runner, of which, guess what, there are a lot of kids out there who fall into that category, who never get picked for the sport, and actually just fallen off the radar because of it. And then sport plays a massive part in in fulfilling the human desire or the human need. You know, you've got relationships, you've got work being worthwhile and you've got your sort of self preservation, but being active is a big part of that. And rowing is a is a hugely valuable part of that mosaic of spor'ts offering and it should be there for every kid. So this isn't just a sort of a pitch to say you know, to the PE department make it part of your sport because it's good for PE. This is a pitch to the headmaster to say, if you want to pick up the last 10% of kids who don't fulfil their potential, then you need to have this sport. Otherwise, we're just basically saying, they're not worth it. Are they gonna look after the top 10% and get them half a grade better, or look after the bottom 10% and think they could get three grades better? In my mind there's no question. But I know it's not easy. 860 quid for an ergo isn't cheap... coaches and those sorts of things, it takes investment. And that's where charities like London Youth Rowing have a massive, massive benefit, because they can deliver a lot of that. They get supported by Sport England, by great events like Race the Thames who fundraise for them. And in a very positive productive way to be able to do that. And there's a whole world of rowing out there that not even rowers know, because it hasn't been invented yet. And the more people that take the sport on and claim it and own it, and develop something that suits them, the better the sport will be. Because it's not complete at the moment, we've got a long, long way to go. And we just need to find the levers that gets more kids, more adults into it, but give them a chance to own it, give them a chance to run with it. And that's what schools are there for. You know, that that will inspire. So give them a chance.

Patricia Carswell: 36:25

Fantastic. Well, let's talk about Race the Thames - this is a big fundraiser you've got coming up in March. So tell us what it is and how it all works and how people can get involved.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 36:39

So it was a physical event last year, it sat alongside NJIRC for the last few years at the Copperbox Arena. It started off as a 72 kilometre challenge for a team of eight to row on one machine, and they would do it, you know, relay style. So person on person off, keep the flywheel moving. And it would take them usually about four to five hours. And we took it online this year. So we've done a number of things to change it up a bit. So firstly, we added a new distance. So we... the 72 k relates to the tidal Thames. So it made sense to add a river Thames. So that's 340 kilometres, still teams of eight, male, female or mixed, you can race it, or you can challenge yourself. So it's for everybody. If you are GB athlete, and you want to show what you've got and raise a bit of money, then you can race it. Or if you've never, you barely do any exercise and actually, you just want to do something to get a bit of a bit of motivation, then it's also an event for you because you can just join this great community, of which the majority of people so far are challenging, in the challenge part, you know, they're doing something new, they'll try out a new exercise, whatever it is.

Patricia Carswell: 37:53

And it doesn't have to be on the rowing machine. Isn't that right? Yeah.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 37:57

And it's COVID safe. Now, a big part of this was trying to open the doors. And so you can do on anything you want indoors or outdoors, just as long as we can get a time and distance output. So a photo of a screen or a screenshot to the Strava type tracking app. It doesn't matter if people want to race it. And then we're going to try and encourage, COVID dependent, get everyone onto rowing machines, or get those people into our machines. If you want to just challenge yourself then whatever you like, and the best story I've got so far is is wonderful lady was mad keen to do it. But she didn't want to run outside. She you know, she was being very safe. And she was like, Can I trampoline?

Patricia Carswell: 38:40

Amazing.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 38:41

Yeah, I think you can trampoline. So we devised a mechanism whereby three minutes of trampoline eating equals one kilometre.

Patricia Carswell: 38:50

Yeah, that sounds about right to me.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 38:52

So she's got a trampoline, and she's got a team. And you know, they'll do other things running, cycling. And that'll all contribute to their team and their fundraising for their corporate charity. They're doing half and half corporate charity and LYR. Or you can fundr... people can just do it all LYR. What's amazing is, you know, I've had the conversation so many times, people don't know rowing who are entering this, a lot of people, you know, we're speaking out to a lot of businesses from around London. And the first thing usually is we won't be able to access rowing machines. And then you sort of get the story line going down about how it's much more open than that. But the potential for me is actually we're introducing people to the community of rose. You know, they're doing this for London Youth Rowing, they're doing it for themselves and all various reasons, but it'll give them an insight. And this is what I'm really excited about. Because this this could be one of the rare occasions that we can really sort of open the doors and feel like I'm doing a really good thing for the sport as creating something new. Our race platform is going to be awesome. You know, the concept is, you know, if you challenge yourself for either one, but do it over a week, it's not about doing the full distance as quickly as you can in a day and a half, you spread it out over the whole week. So even as a race format, and kind of the story unfolds, there'll be tactics to play. So we've talked to a number of boat clubs, Hammersmith Head is going to support us. So they were going to have a Hammersmith Head section of the event. And any crews that come on and put themselves into their event, just support a great event in its own right. But also, you know, it sort of brings together that rowing community. But you know, for teams to actually go out there, it's not just as a to b as fast as you can, is a to b over seven days. So let's do 500 metre chunks or maybe 250 metre chunks. You know, if you do the 72 K, in one day, that's nine kilometres each person, which breaks down maybe it's 18 500 metres in a day. Think about doing that 880 500 metre pieces? How would you go about that?

Patricia Carswell: 41:03

I can't even think about that.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 41:05

Maybe it was it 36 250. You know, you know, and I charge a team to do that. And I reckon you'd have 10 different ways for 10 different teams, I think that'd be quite interesting to see how that plays out over the day. So I reckon we've got something really cool here, I think it's going to be a load of fun, it's definitely going to happen. People can do it on their own machines, if we need to delay because of if we're in a hard lockdown, we'll consider delaying a couple of weeks to get us into a tier system where the clubs could reopen. And if we're in a hard lockdown forever, then you know what we'll devise something like maybe a racing team would have to do to people on the no go to people running to people cycling, just to be able to get a team to do something. And it'll be a bit more fun, you know, the science behind... So for instance, a bike would only count a third of the miles to even it up. So I think we'd have a lot of fun regardless. So you know, I've talked to a few boat clubs at the moment, and there's a lot of genuine intrigue and interest. You know, I think what's going to be awesome is to get this over the line and get people engaged in it. And then realise actually what the potential is.

Patricia Carswell: 42:16

Well, we've already had an extended email thread at our club about fancy dress possibilities.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 42:22

Yes! That's it.

Patricia Carswell: 42:23

We're not so focused on the distance. We're in denial about that. But at the moment, we've been closely planning our kit for every day.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 42:32

To be fair, I think it's fair to say that the last time I was in a in a racing shell was when I raced through the centre of London in a boat called a skerry with Tideway and I was Snow White. And I had my seven dwarves were seven lovely ladies from the, from the office.

Patricia Carswell: 42:53

I really hope there are photos of this somewhere.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 43:00

No, I mean, it was, it's, I mean, this is the thing. Like it was such an amazing event. We had 16 crews on the water, all rowing through the centre of London, you know, right beneath Westminster, the London Eye, through Tower Bridge, just amazing. And then to be fundraising for a great charity dressed as Snow White. This is what I'm saying, we like we know so little about what this sport is capable of. Really, honestly, dude, it's it's so much bigger than we we see it at the moment. And that's kind of my mission is to just blow the doors off it. It won't compromise anything we've got - Henley, you know, the Boat Race, it's all there for life, it's really strong and stable. And the last thing we need to do is compromise those events. And those sort of avenues in the sport. All we can do is add something on the side. You know, we can we can make rowing speak to many more people.

Patricia Carswell: 43:55

So nitty gritty, let's get down to some hard detail. When is it? And how do you sign up?

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 44:03

Oh yeah, that bit.

Patricia Carswell: 44:03

Yeah, that bit!

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 44:04

So the event date is the 22nd to the 29th of March. The best place to find more details, I think you can just google Race the Thames 2021. And you'll find a site that way or it's at www.londonyouthrowing.com/event/racethethames2021. And that'll give you all the information. And then there's two ways to sign up, you can fundraise. So if you're motivated to fundraise for a charity of your choice and London Youth Rowing, then click through on the website that I've just given you. Or if you're a Rowing Club and you feel it's a stretch to fundraise for something you do all the time anyway, which I completely get, we have a buy in way and the best thing to do there is to email me directly. And my email is on the bottom of the website. You'll see it up there. So yeah, get involved. It's going to be great fun. And if there's.. if you're not doing anything e se, which I daresay a lot of yo aren't, then really please, hav a think about it, I think it'd e a good reason to motivate fr ends and teammates to do some raining. They're locked down th ough the winter, you know, kee active, keep motivated. And then you know what, I reckon we'll be finishing lockdown ha e a hard lockdown at the end f March, with a great event an a great reason to look forwa d to the rest of

Patricia Carswell: 45:24

That's fantastic. Well, I'll put all the links in the show notes so people can can find it there as well. But there is something quite special about the Thames. Even for people who haven't really spent any time in London, I think there's something incredibly sort of emotional about it and historic. And I'm really interested to know a bit about your work with The Tideway tunnel project, because that is all about cleaning up the Thames. So tell us briefly a little bit about that before we finish.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 45:58

So The Tideway project is... it came about because so much sewage goes into the river each year, they estimated to be about 14 million tonnes of raw sewage, so 10s of millions of tonnes. And that's like, I think a million times is somewhere like besides at Wembley Stadium, so multi... 10s of multiples of that go into the river each year.

Patricia Carswell: 46:20

I had no idea I, I obviously don't live in London, and I've only ever rowed there for the Vets Head. But I had this idea that the Thames had started becoming lovely and clean and you can swim in it and all this kind of thing. This is kind of heart stopping.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 46:36

Well it is... I know quite a few people who swim in it now and it is definitely cleaner than it used to be. They've done a number of upgrades to the sewage works from Mogden down to... Mogden in the west down to Beckton sewage works in the east, which is Europe's largest sewage works. The problem is that the sewage system was built for Victorians when there were 2 million people for capacity growth up to 4 million. And then we're obviously now at 8 million in the capital. But actually, when it doesn't rain, the system works really well. But whenever it rains, because of all the paved area, and it's a combined system, all the rainwater chases the sewage down, and then it gets to capacity, what can literally flow through the pipes. So then it has to overflow, otherwise, it would overflow into people's houses, which obviously doesn't make sense. So because of the growth of the urban sprawl, actually is what's causing the problem. And it's a lot cheaper to build a big tunnel than it is to dig a hole the streets and to split drainage water from sewage water. So the solution is to build a 26 kilometre tunnel from Acton, Storm Tanks, all the way out to a place called Abbey Mills, which is where Bazalgette's old pumping station is. And they join the river at Chiswick Eyot, it then it goes all the way down to Limehouse Cuts, which is just west of Canary Wharf. And along the way, it picks up all the overflow points. So every point that the old system would load the river itself as to capacity and will literally plug onto the front of those and divert that flow into the tunnel. And then the tunnel then obviously takes it down to the sewage road. So it's an amazing project, it's a 4 billion pound project. We've got an amazing team operating it or running the build - Tideway led by a guy called Andrew Mitchell, Andy Michell, the way he's approached it has been fascinating. And that kind of leads me to kind of how I got involved with it. So I'm a sort of environmental scientist by education, I've got a huge passion for water and being active on it. And he kind of connected the two and said, Well, look, we need to have something that celebrates this tunnel after because you know normally when you build you've spent so much money on something it's visible like a road or a bridge or a train line, not including HS2, and various things which sell the project and give the... give it reason. And my bit was to create something that will communicate once the tunnel is finished the benefits of digging it. Now it's pretty hard to connect people with sewage. It's pretty hard to connect something people with something they can't see.

Patricia Carswell: 49:28

There is a rabbit hole you can go down looking at videos of fatbergs and things.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 49:33

Well yeah, there's a if you're lucky enough Thames Water will even take you down into the sewage works into the city. Oh yeah, been down there. It's amazing.

Patricia Carswell: 49:41

Kids, a fun day out.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 49:42

It's a fun day out. So my bit was basically to reason building a way of celebrating the effects of it, so the clean river and everyone loves a clean river. So that's where the energy and the backing for an event called Regatta London came about. And yeah, it's I've had an amazing journey since Rio rowing, and being part of Tideway. And what it's trying to do environmentally, but then also what I've managed to, to argue for it that it can do for the sport. I feel like I've been very sort of lucky to be in this area. And when so we tried putting off the event in 2019, unfortunately, we had to cancel because two reasons - one there was too much sewage in the river. The other reason was that a massive storm came down. And And I love that it's not just rowing, it's paddleboarding, and we ran the event when they close the Thames barrier, so that we have a calm river rather than a torrent. And unfortunately, it was the first time they ever had to cancel the test closure, because of this storm. So we're now waiting until the tunnel's finished, awbout 2024. And then we're going to give it another go. Because hat we learned the first time around. It took a long time for people to understand what we're trying to do, you know, this new kind of race or challenge concept, just come down and paddle across town, a bridge and Westminster, you know, don't even have to race it. And then for some people, it was coming to race it. There's so many crossovers to Race the Thames, but actually on the water, and then just basically trying to produce a Ride London for paddle sport. And I include rowing, kayak, canoeing, stand up paddle boarding, all of that. There's a great community of people, and we just don't have an event which really sings for participants. You know, it's not elite, although there will be you know, it's like the London arathon. There'll be some very ood rowers there. But this is fo people who just actually want t do something really incredible it's kayaking and canoeing and all that kind of thing. Actually, when I was researching our interview, I discovered a photo of you in a kayak in Superstars in 2012. Oh, no, no.

Patricia Carswell: 51:57

Getting owned by the Brownlee brothers, I think,

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 52:00

Hey, I will, I will confess, that did happen. But they do have kayaks.

Patricia Carswell: 52:05

Oh, do they? Well that's kind of cheating.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 52:07

That is kind of cheating. And they they know it. They know. That's what... I had never been in a boat facing forward in my life. I mean, it just doesn't happen. I mean, who would ever do that? So they had this unnatural advantage over me. And yes, they may have just squeaked just a little bit.

Patricia Carswell: 52:25

Fantastic. Well, just one final thought. Obviously, the environment and the health of our rivers is very important to you. What do you think we should be doing as rowers to safeguard the health of our rivers that we're not doing already? Because I wrote about this for Rowing and Regatta a couple of years ago, I think it was and there's lots of stuff that's being done sort of individually. Lots of, you know, individual, very committed people, is there more we ought to be doing as rowers?

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 52:56

Oh, that's a difficult one. I think. There's obviously a big bit about litter. You know, every time I go walking, I pretty much always pick up two big handfuls of litter. And I could do so much more. But we're not all litter pickers. So there's a bit around that. I think, if we want cleaner rivers, we need to, we need to convince bigger corporations to take more responsibility. And a big part of that is the EA is knowing that when they fine people, for polluting the river, whether that's maybe water companies, maybe it's rogue traders dumping loads of oil into drains, they need to know that they're having an impact. So support for the EA is a big thing. I know, they're also the regulators of the river and you have to sometimes, you know, come down on rowers. So it's not always a mutual relationship, but they need to know they're working with a group of people who want clean rivers. And the other side is yeah, speaking directly towards companies. So making it known to them that actually, when sewage, sewage works overflow, that actually it's affecting people's lives directly. It's the same principle that cyclists and runners on the road, you know about road safety. There's a lot of awareness of that - Surfers against Sewage are doing a lot of work. You know, stopping water companies putting sewage into rivers, we've heard a lot about ... there's a ministerial debate around sewage and rivers at the moment. Rowers tend not to be activists and we tend not to shout about things, especially not in discontent. But if there's any way to add a voice to those groups to just add a bit more gentle pressure, just say look, it actually... your investment is worth it. And actually, we would like it because, you know, we're not just speaking for the fishes and the birds, but also for the kayakers and stand up paddleboarders and the rowers, clean rivers are important, and it makes a difference. So I think we could probably do a bit more of being proactive in that respect. I don't think we should be picketing or anything like that. But you know, add weight to the conversation that actually has a big impact on people's lives.

Patricia Carswell: 55:05

Oh, that's a really interesting and positive thought to end with. And I think that's given us a bit of food for thought how we can how we can do that. Thank you so much. It's been really, really interesting talking to you.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 55:18

Likewise. Thank you.

Patricia Carswell: 55:19

We could have I could have, you know, spent another hour asking you more and more, but next time.

Andrew Triggs Hodge: 55:28

Look forward to it next time. Yeah, no, thank you very much. We'll speak soon.

Patricia Carswell: 55:33

Well, I hope that inspires you to sign up for Race the Thames and perhaps to think of other ways to support London Youth Rowing, do got and have a look at their website, londonyouthrowing.com because there is so much that they do and it really is very inspiring. Next week, there will be no episode I'm afraid. I'm going to be focusing on the Girl on the River blog, which I have neglected a little lately and which is undergoing an overhaul to make the site more podcast friendly. And I have a few posts to catch up on. But I'm delighted to say that the week after that, I've got a really fun episode lined up with the fantastic presenters of Steady State Network, an American rowing podcast that I am quite obsessed with. You may have come across them via ZoomErgos because they've started leading a brilliant and satisfyingly sweary session every Sunday. I had a fantastic chat with them, and I'm really looking forward to sharing that with you. As always, do come and have a chat on social media or email me on girl on the river podcast@gmail.com. And until next time, next stroke easy oar.