Cdr Pete Reed OBE on rehab, life in a wheelchair, Hodgey and Race the Thames

Ep.16 It's very apt that I should have the amazing Pete Reed on the show this week, as things are really ramping up for the Race the Thames challenge which starts on 22nd March. Pete is front and centre of the fundraising, alongside his former crewmate Andy Triggs Hodge (who I interviewed a few weeks ago here) with his Paravengers team.

For those who don't know him, Pete is a three-time Olympic rowing champion (and multiple World Champion), as well as a Commander in the Royal Navy. In 2019 he suffered a spinal stroke, out of the blue, which paralysed him from the waist down, and since then he's been in rehab.

He spoke extensively and candidly to Sir Matthew Pinsent about the stroke and life in the immediate aftermath in a brilliant BBC interview, which you can find on BBC Sounds, so I left that aspect of Pete's life in Matthew's capable hands. Instead, Pete and I chat about:

• Where he is now and life in rehab
• Developing an attitude to cope with change and uncertainty
• What Pete finds most difficult - managing people's expectations
• Whether a rowing coach or a rehab physio is a harder taskmaster
• How being an athlete prepared the way for his current challenges
• Strength of character - nature or nurture
• Life in a wheelchair -  the dos and don'ts when you meet someone in a chair
• Photography and approaching people for portraits
• The progress of his rehab
• *GOTR exclusive* - his new role with the Royal Navy
• Building ethical fitness
• Rowing in a pair with Andrew Triggs Hodge
• Race the Thames

You can support Pete and his Paravengers crew in Race the Thames here.

The crowdfunder started by Andy Triggs Hodge to help Pete to afford basic adaptations and equipment is here.

Transcript

Patricia Carswell: 0:15

This is Girl on the River, the Podcast. Whole crew, come forward to row. Hello and welcome back to Girl on the River the Podcast for Episode 16. I really hope you enjoyed last week's interview with Tara and Rachel from Steady State Network. It felt to me like one of those lovely chats we used to have after rowing, back in the olden days, when we'd sit around with coffee and cake and talk about everything from rowing, to racing to putting the world to rights, then going off on silly tangents and laughing ourselves silly. And we'd come away feeling part of something wonderful. If you missed it, you can catch it at girlontheriver.com or on whatever podcast app you use - just search for Girl on the River. While you're on there, if you can find a minute to rate and ideally review it that makes the podcast much more visible, and it makes it easier for new listeners to find it. And if you're on Instagram, Twitter or Facebook, you can find me at@girlontheriver on all of them. Now this week, I have a real treat for you. I was just thrilled to bits when the amazing Pete Reed said he would come on the show. Pete has been a huge supporter of Girl on the River over the years and a real cheerleader for me personally, and it was just lovely to have some time to catch up with him. For those of you who aren't familiar with Pete, he's a bit of a legend. Having started rowing relatively late at university, he went on to win three Olympic gold medals at Beijing, London and Rio, as well as countless World Championships. And he's been an amazing ambassador for the sport. He's always been incredibly positive in the face of adversity throughout the various trials and tribulations of his athlete life. But in 2019, not long after he retired from rowing, his resilience was really put to the test when he had a spinal stroke out of nowhere, that paralysed him from the chest down. And since then, he's been in full time rehab, more recently in a military rehab facility. If you want to hear more about the stroke itself, and what happened in the immediate aftermath, I highly recommend the brilliant interview he did with Matthew Pinsent last year. And you can see a small extract of it on YouTube and a longer version is still available on BBC Sounds. I didn't want to overlap with that interview because it was so excellent and comprehensive, so when we chatted I didn't ask Pete about the stroke itself, and we actually only talked fairly briefly about his rowing career. But we did have a fantastic chat about his life now, how he's managing and adapting, and most excitingly, in a Girl on the River exclusive, Pete revealed how his career is about to take a new turn. So keep listening. And let's dive in. So Pete, a very, very warm welcome to the podcast.

Pete Reed: 3:27

It's so good to be on, thank you very much. And it's been a... we've been tweeting each other for what feels like years now. But it's nice to have a chat. And yeah, in a very warm welcome to, that's really kind.

Patricia Carswell: 3:38

It's been a long time. Actually, I was thinking back to all those challenges back in the day that you used to do - the sit up challenge and the press up challenge and all that kind of thing. So it's been it's been quite a few years. So tell us where you are right now - where are you recording from, and tell us about you what you're doing there.

Pete Reed: 4:00

Right. Okay. So I'm sitting in my room at Stanford Hall. So Stanford Hall is a military medical facility, specifically for rehab for injured and sick service personnel. And normally, so it's... we're recording on Friday afternoon, I'd be packing up and going home after a working week of rehab to go and see Jeannie, but COVID restrictions are everywhere. And we're rightfully strict here because there are some very vulnerable high risk patients - actually, I'm one of them. So I'm here for the weekend. And we're... I think that there are a lot of complexities in our life at the moment, a lot of uncertainty but those are starting to get ironed out and, and actually it's a really nice position to be in after nearly a year and a half with a spinal cord injury, that actually my biggest problems are COVID that is everybody's problem. And when my problems are everybody's problems, selfishly that's quite a nice position to be in because for a very, very long time, our biggest problems have been lack of independency, and an inability to function and all of those things. So that's where I am. And that's where I'll be this weekend. And I'll try and get home at some point. I'm really missing Jeannie. I think, anyone that's followed me on social media for a while, she's been a big part of that. And yeah, we're, we're so strong, and I do miss her. And it's, it's tough times when we have to be isolated from from each other.

Patricia Carswell: 5:27

That's the really tough bit, I think, for so many people in lockdown is just that separation from, from our nearest and dearest, it's really tough. So have you had your first COVID jab?

Pete Reed: 5:39

So I just learned this morning, so it was great time to speak to you, mine's coming - I have to turn up at 25 past nine to an appointment on Wednesday next week. And it's a 9.40 jab, it's all very perfectly timed, all very military, I love that. But I can't wait to have my jab. I... even hearing about, I was quite emotional about it. And and the reason I'm having it is because I fall into that group of vulnerable patients. So there's the tiering system that everybody knows, of who gets it first. And now it's it's our turn and because my spinal cord injury is of a certain level, it's T6, if anyone wants to know, so thoracic six, just just in the middle of my chest. I'm vulnerable... and I I don't feel vulnerable. You know, I feel like myself, but for sure my cough reflex isn't as strong as it used to be. I can...I have these little kitten coughs now and kitten sneezes so the lung capacity is still there, but because I don't have my abs it just doesn't force air out. And I think that's that's the reason. So I'm looking forward to it.

Patricia Carswell: 6:41

Great. Well, I had mine last weekend and absolutely delighted. But like you I feel like a bit of a fraud because I you know, I feel physically incredibly strong at the moment. But you know, I know technically I am, I am vulnerable. So I accepted it with with great alacrity. So tell me where where you are with your rehab at the moment? What's the daily routine? And how far have you got at the moment?

Pete Reed: 7:08

So I think I'm doing really well. It's, it's a really tricky one because the public are desperate, I think, to see me walk again, and, and no one's more desperate than me, I'd love to walk again and all the other bits and pieces that have gone, I'd love to get them back. But getting them back is in my future, or it isn't. And that's what I've wrestled with all the time, is balancing out optimism and realism. And that's a crucial balance to get right. You know, if you're just optimistic, and you've got nothing to go on, then that's just mindless realism, the more the more weeks that tick on, the more certain I can be of what an outcome might be. And the tricky thing for me is, when my whole adult life, I've known what the outcome is the goal, the deadline, the timescale, the opposition, all of those things that have been known, and even how to get there has been known if we're talking about rowing, but now, I'm not sure what the gold medal is. And I think the public and my friends and family, they will perhaps see the wheelchair and think that the goal is walking again, or maybe getting into a boat. But what I've learned from this rehab journey is the goal of rehab is to be fulfilled and independent, and to operate to the very best of your ability, like optimal performance, not ultra high performance anymore, just what I can get out of what I've got left. And so I've got, I feel like I've got a finite amount of time to make progress. And if we're working really hard with the right people doing the right stuff, making the right choices, then almost doesn't matter what the end outcome is going to be. Now I I'm desperate to walk and I'm desperate to climb mountains. And I wish I had learned to surf and and I miss loads of stuff. But I'm not going to lose sleep about all of that stuff as long as I'm working because I'll be an old man one day and I'll look back and I think yeah, we didn't miss a trick. We did what we could. And I'm proud of that. And look at us now. So fulfilment is key, having a purpose, somewhere to be, people to be there with and those aspects of life, I think, are much stronger for me and Jeannie and our friends and family than they were pre injury. And that is a lovely feeling. You know, I feel good - every morning I wake up and I try and make the best of the day. I try not to get bogged down. I try to prioritise well. I'm in a team with Jeannie. Yeah, it's right. It really is. So that's - I hope that answers your question. Where are we with rehab? In a way it doesn't - the public would love to say, right I'm taking 15 steps by myself and I'm just not. I haven't got, I haven't got the strength. I haven't got the strength in my legs to stand up or anything like it - so I can push chairs away. If I'm sitting down, I can push something away with my right leg, I can lift my right leg for about 10 reps maybe - lift it and move it around before neural fatigue sets in, my left leg is starting to behave and show signs of good behaviour, but it's still way behind the right one. My core doesn't function like normal, but I'm less topply than I was in July, for sure, you know, I can start to support my own weight and lean a little bit further before I fall, and other bits and pieces You know, the other complexities of spinal cord injury, which are bladder and bowel care, and skin care, and sexual function, all that stuff, all of that improves at a rate as well. And, and it's getting better all the time. And, you know, those are massive wins for me, massive wins. There's life changing stuff, but people never see that stuff. And, and maybe it's taboo to ask about it or, or remark or anything like that. They just just see me in a wheelchair and how are your legs doing? So all in all, I'd say good... we're progressing as well as we possibly could.

Patricia Carswell: 11:04

Well, I was speaking to Stephen Dowd, who I know that you have talked to before now, and he was saying that the the key thing for him in his recovery was celebrating the little wins, no matter how small it was, it didn't matter what it was, it would be things that other people would think maybe were a bit insignificant, but they would they would be marked and celebrated at every step. Is that something that you've really had to do?

Pete Reed: 11:28

Yeah, he's absolutely right. And so a key thing, anyone going through a spinal cord injury, and in fact, any trauma, any loss, and that includes all this COVID chapter- that's losses as well, the separation that we just mentioned earlier. You can celebrate the smallest wins, as long as you're prepared to just shuffle your goalposts a bit. So just for example, from my side, if I compared everything I'm doing now physically and emotionally to standing on the middle of a podium in London, then then I would have a really hard time. Opening a pedal bin is not like winning an Olympic final. But I'm prepared to shuffle those goalposts because I'd be lost if I didn't. And then all of a sudden opening the pedal bin back last year was an enormous day and I was able to celebrate it and and then there are so many exciting things that happen in every moment of every day, that as long as you don't dwell on what you were, then you can see real progress and real excitement. And when the failures come as well, they're all right, as well, as long as you learn from them, and you've taken a calculated risk, and you're not doing yourself any harm. I see opportunities to learn all the time, and challenge and change. I've spoken about that quite a lot publicly. There's a lot of that around at the moment. And I just like to remind everybody that those two things, whilst unsettling, are actually wonderful. It's, it's our only opportunity to learn. No one learned anything from a comfortable armchair with a duvet and a pot of ice cream. That feels nice, it's lovely and we'd all like to be there, but you can't learn anything from it.

Patricia Carswell: 13:07

So on the bad days - and you know, you're human, there must be days when your mood is bleak (and I'm not talking about the thought process), but do you have a sort of a process or a drill to be positive? Or does it just kind of happen naturally?

Pete Reed: 13:27

I think it kind of happens naturally. So that... I don't... I try not to get frustrated by anything. But it's always hard if members of the public... the two things that bother me are when members of the public say, if anyone can do it, you can, Pete - you'll be up on your feet and running again, I've got no doubts. And that makes me feel a bit bad because that then puts the pressure on me. So if I'm not on my feet, am I failing by your standards? Where the reality is, the magnitude of the injury is a really big factor. And there are plenty of amazing paraplegics and tetraplegics out there who would love to walk, and it's not through want of trying or expertise. It's, you know, it's just facing up to these things. And the other one is, when people say, Please, you must have bad days. Don't forget to share those as well. And of course, I'm only human. But I think to myself, generally, days are pretty good. And the times where... times where I get frustrated are the times where I got frustrated preinjury as well. It's when... it's when I haven't quite done everything, when I'm not on top of my admin, when I haven't made the call, when I think I've made a bad decision, when there's a moral dilemma that's come up and I can't be in two places at once and I have to let someone down, when I let my own personal values and standards slip. Because I've been, I've been sort of lazy or selfish and I've done something that compromises my values. Those are the things that really let me down when I feel busy, you know, and I haven't taken time to get back to the person who has just emailed because something else has come back in. And I feel like I'm letting people down. Or, or I haven't been on social media for a few days. And I feel like I'm letting people down there. Those are the kinds of things that bother me. And all I do about it is just start doing some of those things. Because as soon as you do even one that feels good, you get that little dopamine rush that you've, you've got back to that person, or perhaps you've done that post, or, or, or taken the time to reply, and then you do another one. And all of a sudden, this domino effect happens where suddenly you're back on top of your personal admin, you're making good decisions, you're, you're putting the time into others. And, and it happens quite quickly. It's not as bad as you think. So that's my answer. That's my strategy when I'm having a bad time. That's the reason. That's what I do about it. And I have to be kind to myself as well. I'm not perfect. I try my best, but I'm definitely not and I make all sorts of mistakes. And I... but you know, there's only one me, there's only one you, there's only one Jeannie, only one Mum and Dad... we can only do our best. And I think in a world that it looks like it expects perfection from everybody, no one expects perfection. Everyone, everyone makes mistakes. So a little bit of kindness to myself, a few jobs, normally some healthy diet choices, and a bit of exercise and some fresh air and I'm back on track.

Patricia Carswell: 16:32

Now you're surrounded there by other veterans and military people going through rehab. And I'm curious to know if you have learned from them.

Pete Reed: 16:43

Yeah, enormously. So I've got to be a little bit careful, because I'm serving military and this is a public podcast, there are some things that I can't talk about, I certainly can't mention names. But I can say this base is amazing. And it's amazing, because the staff here is amazing, because of the patients as well. It's a small group at the moment because of COVID restrictions. And that means it's a very intimate group. We've got a range of complexities, and I think it's partly military mindset. There's a certain dark humour that gets everybody through and is fun and engaging. Nothing is taboo, either. There's that range of injuries is is fascinating because you suddenly realise you can't compare injuries. Everybody's had a life changer. So everybody's injured to the same level as far as I'm concerned. And it's a privilege to be here because as a as a traditional naval officer going through my career, I would never have access to, to the airman from the RAF and young soldiers and different badges and different cultures and experience levels, attitudes, it's, it's like, I've just chucked myself into this, this world of defence that that is a privilege to be around. And they're total heroes here - and like Military Cross heroes, decorated for bravery, done all sorts of things with the most incredible attitudes - you know, just carry on as normal. What changed? What's happened? We laugh a lot. There, there are no ranks here as well amongst the patients, we talk to each other on first name terms, and I can't think of a more valuable life experience or exposure to people and adversity than that. It's amazing.

Patricia Carswell: 18:41

So who is more strict, a rowing coach or rehab physio?

Pete Reed: 18:51

I think a rowing coach actually, there's, there's more compassion from a rehab physio. I say that... I say I'm thinking of my rehab physio right now. And she knows who she is. And she's been on social media a little bit and I've been trying to, I've been trying to sing her praises because she is remarkable. And she doesn't let anything slip. And she's just brilliant. Just so she's solar powered and gives energy to everybody and so consistent. And then I'm thinking of Jurgen who's just hard as nails and doesn't let anything slip. I think there's a lot of similarities. And probably originally, working for my first coach, Fred Smallbone at UWE Boat Club and then Sean Bowden at Oxford and then to Jurgen with other coaches in between, but they are my main three. Having that background to set you up for a spinal cord injury physiotherapist is probably the right background. And it's hard. But yeah, just every time the best things are hard. And some doctor early on in the process taught me this. It was the junior doctor which grabbed me and said in medicine - and I think it's in all aspects of life - but in medicine, bad things happen really quickly and good things happen really, really slowly. And it's so true, so true. But in all aspects of life as well, bad things happen quickly. And then it takes so long for good things to happen that it's easy to give up. But it's also really nice and rewarding when you just see a little bit of progress here and there. Yeah, so set up well from rowing. And I suppose trying my best to capitalise on that in this world of physio and rehab.

Patricia Carswell: 20:33

Now, someone said something really interesting to me, because I know you've talked a lot about how your athlete mindset has has helped you and how, you know, you are kind of moulded by sport. But this was a rowing coach I was talking to yesterday, and she said, sport doesn't build character, it reveals character. And I thought that was really interesting, because I'd always assumed it was it was the reverse. And I'm curious to know what you think about that, and whether your own strength is nature or nurture. ,

Pete Reed: 21:06

I mean, I don't want to sit on the fence too much. But I really do think it's a bit of both. So I think back to all of the people that I rowed with over the years, and some made the team and some didn't, but thinking of the national team, everybody was determined, I think you've got to have a certain character to to keep coming back and keep wanting to put yourself through it. Particularly as when you arrive on day one of let's say, an Olympiad, you are at a certain standard of a certain level of fitness. And looking four years down the line, you need to be have a much higher level of fitness later on, it takes a long time to get there. But the critical thing is it's not a straight line that goes from the first day to the last day, there are days where you're quite a high above that, that line, and then there are days, which are significantly lower, and it might feel like on some of the days, you're so much lower than you were even four months ago, after all of that work. It takes an awful lot of grit, to to make your way through that system. And I think to some extent, if you if you don't have an innate determination, and resilience to set that up, you're not going to make it and the sport isn't going to make it for you, you just you fall back to perhaps a level of commitment that you're prepared to do. So maybe that's more junior club rowing. Perhaps it, perhaps is built in, and it's probably built in from early years, a little bit of genes as well, I'd fall into the nature camp. But with the nurture, I think everyone's got their attributes in life. And I think you can tweak them one way or another, you can work hard to shuffle them if you really think about what they are. And just like you can train your bicep, if you do bicep curls, you can train your attributes, if you exercise them and are aware of them. And sport can help with that.

Patricia Carswell: 22:56

And I suppose what sport does as well is when you stick at it, it teaches you that you've got the ability to, you know, complete an erg test or whatever it is, and then you know that you've shown yourself that you're able to do that. And that then helps with the next challenge. I certainly found myself... I remember there was one day during my chemo and the painkillers weren't working. And I was facedown on the sofa, just, you know, getting through minute by minute. And I remember thinking Come on, you did an erg test. You know, you've done 20 minute erg tests where you didn't even have to do that -you pushed yourself to the end. And I remember actually consciously drawing on that. Do you find yourself doing that?

Pete Reed: 23:40

Yeah, very, very often. So doing things that you don't want to do, but it's the right thing. But I just suggest that that will be in you anyway. And you've got a remarkable story. And when we did that Zoom Ergo together, that was the first 35 minute ergo you'd done for a while.

Patricia Carswell: 23:55

Yeah.

Pete Reed: 23:58

So that would be a really nice confidence boost. And I get them all the time where well, the equivalent for me would be perhaps doing two or three lengths of, in that walking frame with the parallel bars. And it's a massive confidence boost. And yes, I can do that. And so that's, that's training, and it's confidence training as well. It's, and again, it's back to the dopamine thing where I did it, I feel smug. You know, if you wake up early, and get your training session done, you're happy for the rest of the day, like you've achieved something already. Everything else is a bonus. But I just suggest that was in you anyway, that was in your from childhood. I imagine there are plenty of things that you've not wanted to do, but you did them because it was the right thing and it hurt, but you're better afterwards and happier for it. So, I mean, that's the amazing thing about training. You, you get you get rewarded for every single time and it's hard. And the key thing is, doesn't really matter what level you're at. It doesn't matter what your splits are. And it doesn't really matter how long you go for either, as long as it was a little bit further than yesterday. And training works, it really, really does work. It's just hard. So not everyone's prepared to do it. But I know you are, so many of the listeners are, and if you're, if you're in a place where perhaps you're stuck in a rut and you're, you're not doing it, you're not doing what you know you should, don't give yourself a hard time. And start small as well - start really small. If you, if you do too much on the first day, you don't go back to it, and you think, I'm too knackered on day two. So I'll just give myself a breather. If you start small, you think, Yeah, that was good, I did it. I'm not too tired. Today, I'll do a fraction more. And confidence starts going through the roof quite quickly, actually.

Patricia Carswell: 25:43

So let's chat a little bit about life in a wheelchair. Because I think a lot of people probably don't really know, you know, when they come across someone who's a wheelchair user, they don't know how they can best sort of interact with them, what to say, what not to say, what to do and what not to do. So are there any things that you have learned that you can pass on to us so we can better be better friends to people in that situation?

Pete Reed: 26:13

Yeah, yeah, sure. And no one no one will blame anybody for not not feeling like they can get this right straightaway. Because if you don't have any exposure to it, then how could you? How could you possibly, how could you possibly know, and, and I'll hold my hand up as well. I had no understanding of spinal cord injuries, very little of disability. And it's only just a blessing that we trained alongside the Paralympians for so many years that I did have some exposure to this world. But I know that I got it hugely wrong now from sitting in the chair. So the best thing you can do is not assume that everybody needs help - not assume that everybody's sad, and needs a pep talk. And I think just speak to the person in the chair, or don't speak to them, as you would anybody else in the world. Speaking to somebody and causing a... not a fuss, but starting a coversation because they're in the chair, is the wrong thing to do. So just see them as a normal person. It's often hard to ask for help. But I think when... if you're in a wheelchair, you've gone through a process of rehabilitation and education, and then go back into society. And we're taught how to ask for help if we if we need it. It's, it's not normally very nice if somebody just comes up and assumes I need help and says, Do you want a hand with that, like there, there's a really nice article that I read, and I can't remember who it's by, on benevolent ableism. Which is amazing. It's an amazing phrase where the able bodied people just feel like they should be giving their abledness to people that they see lower down on the ability ladder than them. And now I am vulnerable. It's clear what my vulnerabilities are. But I can do an awful lot. And so can so many other people, they will ask for help if they need it. And often I find some people ask for help. That's on me to show some kindness and just say no, thank you very much. So if if they react badly to you offering some help, they might just be having a bad day. And I've reacted badly before when someone's said, do you want a hand? I sort of, I caught myself snapping and saying, what exactly do you mean by that? How, what help do you think I need? Because I was thinking to myself, and I would never say it, but I am perfectly able to get into my car and lift my chair across and put in the driver's seat and drive off. I felt a bit... it was like he was assaulting my, my ability to live or my... I don't even know it was it was, it felt quite insulting and assaulting. So to answer your question, just as if it was somebody standing next to you, if you're on a tube, you probably wouldn't say anything. And, and if the circumstances are different. It's never, it's never horrible to say do you want a hand with that. It's tricky. And it's really... but it shouldn't be tricky. It shouldn't be tricky. It's it's just everyday stuff. I feel like I need to be much better at being on the receiving end of somebody that I think gets it wrong. And actually what I what I think is wrong or right changes depending on my mood or the day or what's just happened or if I'm struggling with routines that day. So good luck to you - good luck! I think if if people would just quietly educate themselves on what it means to have a spinal cord injury, and what some of the complexities are, that would be a massive start. And also what you can do is when you're out and about or when you're going downstairs to the kitchen or just living your life, think to yourself, how would I do this if I was in a wheelchair that was 80 centimetres wide? Could I get through this gap? Could I get down that step, could I could I reach that shelf, just quietly think to yourself what life might be like. Because if you actively think about that stuff, then when you do come across me or someone else in a wheelchair, you'll just have an appreciation for the little bits. And very often, I'm more fatigued now than I used to be. Because everything I do has to do with my arms, and I'm a big old lump to, to cart around with relatively small arms compared to my legs, so everything's tiring. And then imagine a day where you've got a urine infection and you can't stop peeing, or when you're exhausted and all of that stuff. I've got the same life as I did before, it's just a little bit more time consuming and takes a bit more planning.

Patricia Carswell: 30:53

And then there'll be a new world to navigate when lockdowns and and life returns to normal. And there'll be kind of socialising in a wheelchair, which I imagine is going to be something you probably haven't really been able to do very much.

Pete Reed: 31:08

Yeah, you're so right. In February, March, last year was the last time I was out and went to Twickenham for a rugby game with the benevolent fund here. And that was one of the first times I was out in a crowd. And I'm not six foot six anymore. Maybe I took it for granted, but my life was... I could see everything and everybody and pick stuff out and go where I wanted to go. And now I mean, I'm about five foot tall. That's like, I suppose an eight year old girl, I just wheel around, people don't see me, it's just a sea of bums. And it feels it's very, very different. And it can get on top of you. And that's just being in a crowded environment. So as in if you're in a crowded environment, little drains, for example, where if you're not looking and your wheel drops into a drain, and you fall out - easy for me to say - what about when you get to a pub, and there's a there's a step to get in.

Patricia Carswell: 32:05

And there's always a step. I have a friend who's a wheelchair user, and every pub we've been to, there's a step.

Pete Reed: 32:13

There's always a step, but there's always a way in. But these things I haven't really navigated yet, how people, how the public respond to me in a chair, it's all very different. But I'm looking forward to that. I don't really mind either, you know, I feel like I've got enough confidence to just go in and try and navigate and try and educate. And if there's a step to get into a place well, I'm going to get in anyway. And have done in the past and even if it's, even if it's a transfer onto the floor, so I'm sitting outside and then pull my chair and over top of me and transfer back into the chair and what are you worried about, you know, it's... I've had some some situations in the past where I have been a bit embarrassed or felt like a bit of a burden which is horrible. Early on I was away the previous Christmas, I was very, very new to injury, but we hired a place which was accessible. But there was a ... ao I was with family. And there was a bathroom door downstairs, the only bathroom that I had access to, the door was just too narrow to get through for my wheelchair. And if it's too narrow, it's too narrow. So what I found myself doing is using a catheter-self-catheterising in the corner in the kitchen, facing the room while everybody was sort of somewhere else- now it's a hygienic process. It's not about that - it's just about your, your personal values and experience and...

Patricia Carswell: 33:37

And how you see yourself as well.

Pete Reed: 33:40

Is this what it's come to now, because, you know, I used to be, let's face it, pretty able bodied and and all of a sudden, three months ago, life changed and now I'm peeing in a bag in the corner of a kitchen while everyone pretends not to notice because I can't get my wheelchair through a bathroom door. And then I'm asking Jeannie to empty my pee down the toilet. It's a lot to come to terms with. And that's just... it's one of very many examples that are hard to navigate. But to navigate those successfully, you can just do it with a bit of cheer and a bit of lightheartedness and make a joke about it and all of a sudden, it doesn't it doesn't seem so bad. I mean it's as bad as you'll let it be.

Patricia Carswell: 34:16

Is it easier approaching strangers to take their photograph when you're in a wheelchair because I know photography is a big passion of yours and I've seen some pictures that you've done of people in the public and I wondered if that is one thing that's different is approaching people now to take their picture.

Pete Reed: 34:35

I think it is much easier. I haven't done it much in the public because I haven't been around the public but I have taken a lot of pictures of my my friends here at Stanford Hall, so other military rehabbers, and and I'm doing a portrait project of the staff here wearing COVID masks to leave something behind when I leave just to say thank you. And I really think it will be easier to to have that connection and interaction. So when I was ... previously, I would just have to trial and error and use a few skills and techniques to not be in any way intimidating and come across, start a conversation way before you even start thinking about getting your camera out. And, and it's very doable. But the, the ice has already broken because I'm in a wheelchair. And people see that I'm vulnerable. And it makes it easier to have difficult conversations, to open up about things. I mean, I'd never ever try and be intimidating in my previous life. But I know what I looked like and I find that having meaningful conversations with people now is much easier, because barriers are broken down immediately. And, and everybody's got their wheelchair, it's just previously you couldn't see mine. And now you can and people are much happier sharing their wheelchair when they know that you've got one. And that's a really nice aspect of life, actually, to be able to connect with people much more easily and discuss things that are more important than achievements, or PBs on the 2k or just stuff that just really... they don't matter - none of it matters. But the people do, and the feelings, what they're going through does. And I feel like I have perhaps more access to that now. And being able to take a portrait of somebody is probably a really good measure of that. How, how easy is it to connect with someone? What sort of portrait can you get as well, you know, some of them just look awkward and stilted and that's because the photographer's done a bad job at making the subject feel relaxed, I suppose.

Patricia Carswell: 36:48

iI's quite an intimate thing, isn't it taking a portrait of someone?

Pete Reed: 36:52

I think it is as well. And I suppose the power lies with the photographer. Because the person having their picture taken is sort of vulnerable. They're the one that's being captured. The photographer's got the equipment in their hand and is giving direction there's there's a there's an authority gradient there, that I think a good photographer will shallow out that gradient and make sure that those phenomenons don't exist. And I think it's it's much much easier for me now to have a very, very shallow authority gradient. That... I mean there isn't one because I'm in a wheelchair. When we get through these, these coming months, and we're able to get out a bit more, and I'm out with my camera, I'll do a test for you and let you know how about that.

Patricia Carswell: 37:34

Yeah, that would be great. So what is coming up next in your life?

Pete Reed: 37:42

So this is really exciting. Nothing happens quickly. In this world. We discussed that already. But I'm just I'm so excited about the future, I feel, I feel motivated. And there are so many things to do as well. And we'll get there. But I'm very, very early on in my rehab journey, I still... 18 months in is really early. And from all of the the senior disabled, paraplegic spinal cord injury patients that I know have said, you know, it's really five years before you get your life in order. And I'll try and stay ahead of the curve, but it's probably about right. So with the caveat of rehab comes first, there was some really, really amazing military developments in December. So a normal process to go through is to go to a medical board where doctors look at your case, and and your personal statement of what you would like to do and and decide whether or not it's safe to go back to work. And a really exciting development for me was that the medical board recommended that I'm retainable in service and employable, because... for lots of reasons. But I'm quite severely injured to have that recommendation. So that was exciting in the first place. And then in January, the employment board agreed have recently put me into a new job. So I don't think I'm unique. But there can't... I don't think there are many spinal cord injuries coming back into service. And it's because a lot of my work will be academic and learning. There'll be, there'll be a lot of briefing, there'll be a lot of teaching, and there'll be a lot of presenting and helping with training and doing tutorials and the role is really exciting. It's brand brand new, and it's a cell called the Conduct and Culture Cell. And it's brand new, it's it's needed, I think needed in society. But it's related to ethical leadership. It's related to moral decision making, of cultural climates. It's related to behaviour, how we treat people, what the right thing to do is. My job will be influencing and leading cultural change at a training level and above, so that rather than waiting 15 years or 20 years for good conduct and good culture to spread throughout the Navy, we do it in two or three years. The Navy is amazing. It's an amazing organisation, and we've got so many great areas, my job is simply spread those good areas and influence good behaviour. And what a privilege it is to be part of a team that... I've got a lot to learn, I recognise that and I don't have all the answers, that you can be pretty sure that people on the frontline have the answers. And I'm, at the moment, I'm just busy, I'm learning and working out what I can actually do to make a difference to people's lives. Because the the ultimate aim is to change lives, make the Navy a healthier place to live and work, save lives, in some cases and, and keep people and retain more talent, promote the right talent, pull out the bad apples, who are in the minority. And that's, you can tell from my answer that we're not quite there yet. But but it's a wonderful opportunity. And I haven't been this motivated since London 2012. I really haven't. It's, it's a huge opportunity and very exciting. And I am very proud to be in the Navy. And I don't want to let them down either. Yeah, it's cool, chomping at the bit.

Patricia Carswell: 41:20

That sounds really exciting. And, and quite a big adventure in the sense that if it's a brand new, a brand new enterprise and a brand new role, there's no template, so you'll be feeling your way, presumably.

Pete Reed: 41:34

Yeah, we so I've got a boss who's a remarkable man. And we, we really want to make this work. And not just, we don't want to speak like academics, or just be another box ticking exercise, we want to speak English and make a difference to people's lives. And actually, it's not, it's not that hard. As far as I can tell, it's just about doing the right thing and not doing the right thing. In the highest pressures of moments when the stakes are really high, let's... a nice analogy might be, you don't win an Olympic final every day. It's doing the right thing all day, every day, like the training, you turn up to training and you do your 20k ergo, and you do the stretching afterwards, and you eat professionally and you get the rest and you work out how you can be better, you think about how you can put the oar in the water a little bit quicker. And you do your three training sessions and go home and rest and come back and do it again the next day . In the same way, I think we need to build up ethical fitness by doing the right thing every day. And by treating people with a little bit of kindness. And rather than do the wrong thing and promote ourselves, even when no one's looking, we do the right thing by our peers and by our organisations. And it's down to even small decisions, you know, when when you get in, do you hang your coat up? Or do you just chuck it on the sofa? And it might seem like nothing. But that's the equivalent of doing a couple of reps on the rowing machine to get a little bit fitter. You know, hang your coat up. If you're not prepared to hang your coat up what else aren't you prepared to do? And there's a scale from that example, to the other end of the spectrum, which is that bad things can happen. And I think I'd like to investigate this idea of ethical fitness and how we can how do the right thing every day to look out for each other, to care a little bit more. And I think that's very doable. I don't know how I'm going to do it yet. But I know that the it's not just me. The Navy is a remarkable place. And I have a lot of help. And the challenge now is I'm still in full time rehab. And that's still the goal is rehab and health comes first but as a graduated return to work as a starting out and chipping in what a wonderful, what a wonderful way to get back started and to contribute in a meaningful way.

Patricia Carswell: 43:57

That is absolutely fantastic.

Pete Reed: 44:00

Thank you.

Patricia Carswell: 44:01

We ought to talk... I had Andy Hodge on the show very recently.

Pete Reed: 44:06

Yes!

Patricia Carswell: 44:08

And we had a little chat about the pair and the good old days. And he said basically, the dynamic between you was was an interesting one because you both brought very different things to the pair and looked at the world through different eyes. And he kind of described himself in the squad as the stroppy one, the one who was kind of always pushing and challenging. So I wondered how you saw yourself, you know, what sort of character were you within a crew?

Pete Reed: 44:38

Oh goodness. Well, firstly, Andy's amazing - he's a truly amazing... and you weren't asking me and I've I'm careful not to rank athletes because I think we all we all bring something a little bit different across the board - everyone's sort of nine or 10 out of 10 - but I mean Andy was just in a... in a team of people I rowed with- and I counted up recently - I've rowed with 18 different people to Olympic champion or World Champion - I think Andy was the best athlete all round. And amongst people like Constantine Louloudis and, and Alex Gregory and Tom James and Steve Williams, you know, I'm wrong to name names, but Andy's amazing. He had everything. And it was a real pleasure to just sit behind him. And all I needed to say was go at the right time- that was my only job and then just hold on. If he says he's the stroppy one, he might be right. But then the flip side of that coin was he had the highest standards and set the highest standards. And he was always pushing for more. So any training session he would, would come down, and he would insist that we were on our splits in paddling for any 20k through any winter in the first year of Olympiad. And that's the, that's the person you want to row with. And, yeah, just a very, very consistent, you know, Andy on his worst day was a nine and a half out of 10. And you could wake him up in the middle of the night and he would be nine and a half out of 10. On his best, you know, it's just through the roof. And he did things on the ergo that I just didn't think were possible. I was privileged enough to to sit next to him and just think, how, how, how are those numbers there? This is, this is ridiculous. And then he'd have another gear. And I've got loads of stories about Andy, but my favourite one was a Boston, Boston trial, or 5k trial in pairs. And the two of us were together, we I think we were in our prime, really early on, we'd done all of our homework, and we were nailing it. And it was about 250 metres before the finish. Both of us knew exactly where we were. And I had emptied myself, just to try and stay with him through the middle of the race. And my last call was back off, I've blown - I couldn't stay with him. And that was like a red rag to a bull. He had another gear. We saw... we went across the line on my side of the course because I couldn't hold him straight. He was already steering and we won that race by 20 seconds. And I just thought, what a machine, what a horse. So yeah, great memories with Hodgey, and hugely passionate, I think where he brought an awful lot of passion. I think my strengths were, I think I brought a lot of level headedness. And so I feel like I was consistent in the team. And actually, when when it really mattered, I performed I felt quite grounded. So there on the big race days, I was good at settling nerves and getting people in the right place and making the most out of high pressure situations. I was, I was always on point with things like timekeeping, the subtle things. And now when I'm describing what I was good at, I feel like I'm boring. I was good at the really boring details and making sure that no cutting corners and not letting the little things slip.

Patricia Carswell: 48:03

So is there an outrageous side that you keep hidden away? You know, if the police turned up at the door and said Lieutenant Commander Reed, you're under arrest? What would you think? Would you think, Oh, it was that time when...

Pete Reed: 48:16

No. So I think that I'm not I'm not totally boring. But when it when it came to rowing in particular I was... I tried to be professional and do the right thing. And

Patricia Carswell: 48:29

Well, every crew needs that person.

Pete Reed: 48:31

Well, it's the boring person, but it keeps people honest. And they do need that. And actually they need an Alex Gregory as well who's, who really was great at defusing situations and was the gel and said the right funnny at the right time. And in our, in our 2012 crew, Tom James, he was very, very analytical and a real thinker and, and got us all thinking about things that perhaps we might have overlooked or got complacent over, we had bags of humility in that crew. So none of us thought we were amazing. We were all very, very keen to learn and I think a very high level. We were good at everything, but we had our strengths to bring, but I think I'd rank Hodgey as number one.

Patricia Carswell: 49:17

And the two, the two of you have been doing a bit of fundraising for each other, in that he set up a crowdfunder for you to raise money for essential stuff. And in turn, you're now supporting him in Race the Thames - I've seen I've seen a few tweets coming out lately and that's something that I'm getting involved with. So what what are you going to be doing for Race the Thames? Are you going to get involved on the ski erg?

Pete Reed: 49:48

Amazing, and I'm so pleased you're doing it, too. So yes, I'll be doing it on the ski erg. I need to get a crew together. So as we've been talking a little email's pinged up from Andy... Race the Thames we're all talking about, and that's what my social media is going to be full of in the coming weeks. It's a really nice initiative from London Youth Rowing to get people into groups that perhaps need the group. And to get them doing something that's... actually it's an enormous challenge, but it's achievable over a certain amount of time. I'm going to be using the ski erg to cover a certain distance. And it's nice, it gives me a reason to get up and do it. And supporting Andy, you mentioned the crowdfunder that he did for me, I had mixed emotions about that one - it was, it was amazing, and needed at a very hard time. And a difficult one for me, as well, it was sort of a public show that I am vulnerable and I'm in a world of pain here. And the public were so generous and life- actually with a spinal cord injury, that's the other thing. It's, it's expensive. It's not easy, and you can't just buy a pair of walking boots anymore to go hiking, you need a 5000 pound wheelchair that just does something pretty special, depending on what you want to do and where you want to go. And pretty much add zero to anything. And supporting ... Andy and I will always be close. He's like a brother to me and, and supporting London Youth Rowing for this initiative is an absolute no brainer, because it's brilliant. And I've been friends with London Youth Rowing for years anyway. But putting a few miles in every day in the last week of March in a team effort to Race the Thames seems like a great idea. And if I can do my bit for the Royal Navy and Royal Marines charity as well, then all power to it.

Patricia Carswell: 51:44

Fantastic. Well, that is a lovely note to end on. Thank you so so much for coming on. It's been an absolute joy and a real privilege to have you on the podcast. So thank you very, very much.

Pete Reed: 51:56

Thank you, Patricia. It's lovely to talk about a few things and especially my thoughts about coming back into work as well. That's brand new. And and yeah, this is it's lovely to be able to have a little bit of a voice through your channels. This This isn't me. So I'm grateful for the invitation and look forward to catching up with you about Race the Thames and catching up with all things rowing in the coming months. I'll let you know how we get on.

Patricia Carswell: 52:23

I'll put details of the fundraisers we talked about in the show notes, so do have a look. As Pete mentioned, I've entered Race the Thames, too, as part of the Monmouth Wonder Women crew, and we're going to be dressing up every day in a different costume between the 22nd and the 28th of March so look out for me on social media looking ridiculous and trying to work out in various impractical costumes. Now next week, I have something a bit different for you. My guest is an ex-SAS soldier who is preparing to row the Atlantic, but not in the usual way,so make sure you listen in to hear tales of escaping from kidnappers and ocean rowing using the stars. If you want to make sure you don't miss an episode, you can subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use. And just to be clear, subscribing doesn't cost you a penny. But if you do feel minded to support the show, you can become a patron for as little as three pounds per month. And that way you get early access to each episode as well as bonus content and various other perks. And that all helps me to cover the costs of running the podcast and keeping the show on the road. You can find all about that patreon.com/girlontheriver. Or you can follow the link through from my website girlontheriver.com - or if you're in any doubt just get in touch at @girlontheriver on all channels. So that's all for now. I hope you have a great week. And until then, next stroke easy